Australian Politics Forum - The "core tenets" of Islam

freediver

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Re: The "core tenets" of Islam
Reply #75 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 12:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 9:57pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

Muhammad himself had stated, “If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.”[5] He even went so far as to condemn the “appearance” of homosexuality, when he cursed effeminate men and masculine women and ordered his followers to "Turn them out of your houses."[6] This ruling on homosexuals was naturally adopted by his later successors.

1. Lot is an interesting one. Islamic LGBT activist argue that the real sins of Lot's people was not the act of sodomy itself. Lets take just one description taken from a wiki article to examine this point:

The people of Sodom and Gomorrah, the twin cities which Lot was sent to with God's message, transgressed consciously against the bounds of God. Their avarice led to inhospitality and robbery, which in turn led to the humiliation of strangers by mistreatment and rape. It was their abominable sin of homosexuality which was seen as symptomatic of their attitudes

Taking away, of course, the part about "It was their abominable sin of homosexuality..." - and it can be seen how these activists make their case. The people of Lot "consciously transgressed" their religion, which led to a general display of immorality: inhospitality, robbery, rape etc. It is in this context, and *ONLY* this context that the act of sodomy is condemned - not, so the argument goes, the act of sodomy per se - where it can presumably be performed by righteous, God-fearing people in a proper, loving relationship (ie not lust).

2. The second point in your quote refers to men acting effeminately, and women acting masculine - which has nothing to do with homosexuality. The author is completely wrong to label this as the "appearance of homosexuality".

So what do you think Muhammed meant by "the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done."

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The "core tenets" of Islam Reply #76 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 12:44pm I'm not sure FD.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49212 At my desk.	Re: The "core tenets" of Islam Reply #77 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 12:46pm Would you like me to draw you a picture?
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Datalife Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2405 Gender:	Re: The "core tenets" of Islam Reply #78 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 12:52pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 10^th, 2014 at 12:44pm: I'm not sure FD. Wilful ignorance is a common currency it seems amongst the dissemblers and apologists.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The "core tenets" of Islam Reply #79 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 1:30pm I thought it was tapdancing datalife
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96171 Gender:	Re: The "core tenets" of Islam Reply #80 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 1:53pm freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2014 at 12:46pm: Would you like me to draw you a picture? Yes, please.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: The "core tenets" of Islam
Reply #81 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 1:54pm

Anyway...

One would imagine that if it was a specific order against sodomy itself, The Prophet would have said something like "If you find anyone committing sodomy..." rather than the slightly more cryptic "if you find anyone doing as Lot's people did..."

What we do know is that the sins of Lot's people was not sodomy per se - but the whole gamut of base, criminal behaviour that come with a complete moral breakdown - robbery, rape, murder etc, of which sodomy in that context came to symbolise.

By the description, Muhammad is clearly talking about an act of sodomy, but is it necessarily any act of sodomy? In my view, the case has not been conclusively made.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: The "core tenets" of Islam
Reply #82 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 6:56pm

Quote:

One would imagine that if it was a specific order against sodomy itself, The Prophet would have said something like "If you find anyone committing sodomy..." rather than the slightly more cryptic "if you find anyone doing as Lot's people did..."

...kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

Roll Eyes

Quote:

What we do know is that the sins of Lot's people was not sodomy per se - but the whole gamut of base, criminal behaviour that come with a complete moral breakdown - robbery, rape, murder etc, of which sodomy in that context came to symbolise.

How do we know that?

Quote:

By the description, Muhammad is clearly talking about an act of sodomy, but is it necessarily any act of sodomy?

What distinction are you trying to make here Gandalf?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The "core tenets" of Islam
Reply #83 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 7:40pm

FD he's obviously talking about sodomy.

But the argument has been made (not by me) that he is only talking about sodomy that is borne out of lust and debauchery - not from genuine love and commitment.

You've got to admit there is a legitimate question about why he refers to it as "anyone doing as Lot's people did" as opposed to simply saying "anyone who commits sodomy"

Also, the quranic verses referring to Lot's people only refers to sodomy in the context of lust, no mention of sodomy in the context of genuine love and devotion.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Datalife

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Re: The "core tenets" of Islam
Reply #84 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 7:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 10^th, 2014 at 7:40pm:

FD he's obviously talking about sodomy.

But the argument has been made (not by me) that he is only talking about sodomy that is borne out of lust and debauchery - not from genuine love and commitment.

You've got to admit there is a legitimate question about why he refers to it as "anyone doing as Lot's people did" as opposed to simply saying "anyone who commits sodomy"

Also, the quranic verses referring to Lot's people only refers to sodomy in the context of lust, no mention of sodomy in the context of genuine love and devotion.

That degree of sophistry is worthy of Yadda when defending ridiculous aspects of his sky pixie beliefs.

And as laughable. Tis a joy to watch you at work.

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"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007

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freediver

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Re: The "core tenets" of Islam
Reply #85 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 7:59pm

Quote:

But the argument has been made (not by me) that he is only talking about sodomy that is borne out of lust and debauchery - not from genuine love and commitment.

Why are you disowning this argument?

Quote:

You've got to admit there is a legitimate question about why he refers to it as "anyone doing as Lot's people did" as opposed to simply saying "anyone who commits sodomy"

No I don't.

Quote:

Also, the quranic verses referring to Lot's people only refers to sodomy in the context of lust, no mention of sodomy in the context of genuine love and devotion.

Duh. I bet the Koran also doesn't talk about Muhammed engaging in Sodomy with his one true love.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The "core tenets" of Islam Reply #86 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 8:05pm Datalife your contribution on this forum is simply awe-inspiring.
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Mattywisk

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Re: The "core tenets" of Islam
Reply #87 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 8:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 10^th, 2014 at 7:40pm:

FD he's obviously talking about sodomy.

But the argument has been made (not by me) that he is only talking about sodomy that is borne out of lust and debauchery - not from genuine love and commitment.

You've got to admit there is a legitimate question about why he refers to it as "anyone doing as Lot's people did" as opposed to simply saying "anyone who commits sodomy"

Also, the quranic verses referring to Lot's people only refers to sodomy in the context of lust, no mention of sodomy in the context of genuine love and devotion.

It is interesting Gandslam has sodomy born out of love and commitment. Allah (if you call him that in Gandslam) must be delighted. The world needs a Homosexual Religion its much over due.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96171 Gender:	Re: The "core tenets" of Islam Reply #88 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 8:48pm The old boy and I prefer sodomy borne out of hate. But that’s just us. Gud is great. It is a jolly world, no?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49212 At my desk.	Re: The "core tenets" of Islam Reply #89 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 9:18pm So basically you kill gay people (both the giver and the taker), but only if they are also inhospitable? I wonder how many gay pride parades they had in Muhammed's time?
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