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apologist-approved criticsm (Read 9073 times)
Lord Herbert
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #105 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 2:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 12:24pm:
You are preaching intellectually bankrupt spineless apologetics. You have attempted to give it legitimacy by associating it with the views of the great thinkers of the enlightenment, as well as Mandela and Gandhi. You have failed.


Dismally.

Gandalf suicide-bombed his own credibility with that nonsense about not being able to criticise someone if it offends.

His credibility is stuck all over the inside of my screen here and I don't know how to wipe it off.
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Karnal
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #106 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 2:26pm
 
Well, okay, we might not all agree. But at least Herb should get something decent to waink over once in a while.

I think we can all agree on that.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #107 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 4:33pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 2:00pm:
Gandalf suicide-bombed his own credibility with that nonsense about not being able to criticise someone if it offends.


Excuse me?

Mind quoting me Herb?

I think you'll find that on planet earth I specifically stated my objection to such an outlook. Unlike the majority of Australians.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #108 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 4:41pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 4:33pm:
Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 2:00pm:
Gandalf suicide-bombed his own credibility with that nonsense about not being able to criticise someone if it offends.


Excuse me?

Mind quoting me Herb?


That's just the sort of apologism FD's complaining about. Why should Herb have to quote anyone to get his point across? It's intellectual cowardice of the worst kind:

Quote:
I don't hold that people should be free to "criticize" whatever they don't like.


Don't fall into the apologist trap, G. The one thing FD admires about genuine Muslims like Abu is their willingness to call a spade a spade.

This puts FD alongside great men like Gandhi, who argued, Quote:
"the Satyagrahi’s object is to convert, not to coerce, the wrong-doer.”[11] Success is defined as cooperating with the opponent to meet a just end that the opponent is unwittingly obstructing.


I do feel there's a little apologism in all of us, no?
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« Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2014 at 4:55pm by Karnal »  
 
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freediver
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #109 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 6:49pm
 
Quote:
For Mantena, Gandhi is a “connected critic” because of the stance he adopted. As a critic of the British Empire, he self-consciously presented himself as a loyal British subject who demanded that the empire make good on its promise to provide political equality and protection for all the subjects and, thus, an end to racial discrimination. Despite the extra-legality of some of his methods, he demonstrated a deep respect for the law in his civil disobedience. Second, as a critic of radical and extremist forms of Indian nationalism, Gandhi acknowledged the unhappiness of militant nationalists but believed their elitist methods, which excluded India’s peasant millions, would achieve merely a change of masters, not a change of rule. Finally, as a critic of inequality in the Hindu social order, in his disputes with Hindu orthodoxy, Gandhi claimed to be the most orthodox of all. According to Mantena’s interpretation of Gandhi, such criticism belongs resolutely to the plane of action and not to the plane of contemplation.


In other words, he was a classic wind-up merchant, using the Brit's own standards against them. Fancy trying to tell the Brahmins that they can't be superior to the Shadras any more? Gandhi was the first troll. Certainly not a spineless apologist.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Karnal
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #110 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:18pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 6:49pm:
Quote:
For Mantena, Gandhi is a “connected critic” because of the stance he adopted. As a critic of the British Empire, he self-consciously presented himself as a loyal British subject who demanded that the empire make good on its promise to provide political equality and protection for all the subjects and, thus, an end to racial discrimination. Despite the extra-legality of some of his methods, he demonstrated a deep respect for the law in his civil disobedience. Second, as a critic of radical and extremist forms of Indian nationalism, Gandhi acknowledged the unhappiness of militant nationalists but believed their elitist methods, which excluded India’s peasant millions, would achieve merely a change of masters, not a change of rule. Finally, as a critic of inequality in the Hindu social order, in his disputes with Hindu orthodoxy, Gandhi claimed to be the most orthodox of all. According to Mantena’s interpretation of Gandhi, such criticism belongs resolutely to the plane of action and not to the plane of contemplation.


In other words, he was a classic wind-up merchant, using the Brit's own standards against them. Fancy trying to tell the Brahmins that they can't be superior to the Shadras any more? Gandhi was the first troll. Certainly not a spineless apologist.


Good to see you doing some research on the topic, FD. I see where you’re going with this.

By trying to overturn the caste system, Gandhi was practicing Taqqiya.

Cunning, no?
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Mattywisk
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #111 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:20pm
 
Progressive muslim & pretend muslim  Grin

gud is gwait no ?
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Lord Herbert
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #112 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:24pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 4:33pm:
Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 2:00pm:
Gandalf suicide-bombed his own credibility with that nonsense about not being able to criticise someone if it offends.


Excuse me?

Mind quoting me Herb?

I think you'll find that on planet earth I specifically stated my objection to such an outlook. Unlike the majority of Australians.


Very generously I've decided not to run you to ground over your latest moral indiscretions on the matter of freedom of speech as I believe you'll feel less pressured and have more wriggle-room with your latest joustings with freediver.

If we took each other up on every point we'd be here all day.  Cool

Let it not be said I lack compassion for those with their backs to the wall.

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Karnal
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #113 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:24pm
 
Mattywisk wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:20pm:
Progressive muslim & pretend muslim  Grin

gud is gwait no ?


Censor this one, Moderator. You know why.
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Karnal
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #114 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:26pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:24pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 4:33pm:
Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 2:00pm:
Gandalf suicide-bombed his own credibility with that nonsense about not being able to criticise someone if it offends.


Excuse me?

Mind quoting me Herb?

I think you'll find that on planet earth I specifically stated my objection to such an outlook. Unlike the majority of Australians.


Very generously I've decided not to run you to ground over your latest moral indiscretions on the matter of freedom of speech as I believe you'll feel less pressured and have more wriggle-room with your latest joustings with freediver.

If we took each other up on every point we'd be here all day.  Cool



Very generous, Herb. Best to take G up on a new point when you need to spray your screen again.
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freediver
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #115 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:27pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:18pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 6:49pm:
Quote:
For Mantena, Gandhi is a “connected critic” because of the stance he adopted. As a critic of the British Empire, he self-consciously presented himself as a loyal British subject who demanded that the empire make good on its promise to provide political equality and protection for all the subjects and, thus, an end to racial discrimination. Despite the extra-legality of some of his methods, he demonstrated a deep respect for the law in his civil disobedience. Second, as a critic of radical and extremist forms of Indian nationalism, Gandhi acknowledged the unhappiness of militant nationalists but believed their elitist methods, which excluded India’s peasant millions, would achieve merely a change of masters, not a change of rule. Finally, as a critic of inequality in the Hindu social order, in his disputes with Hindu orthodoxy, Gandhi claimed to be the most orthodox of all. According to Mantena’s interpretation of Gandhi, such criticism belongs resolutely to the plane of action and not to the plane of contemplation.


In other words, he was a classic wind-up merchant, using the Brit's own standards against them. Fancy trying to tell the Brahmins that they can't be superior to the Shadras any more? Gandhi was the first troll. Certainly not a spineless apologist.


Good to see you doing some research on the topic, FD. I see where you’re going with this.

By trying to overturn the caste system, Gandhi was practicing Taqqiya.

Cunning, no?


You are preaching intellectually bankrupt spineless apologetics. You have attempted to give it legitimacy by associating it with the views of the great thinkers of the enlightenment, as well as Mandela and Gandhi. You have failed. Again.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Mattywisk
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #116 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:28pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:24pm:
Mattywisk wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:20pm:
Progressive muslim & pretend muslim  Grin

gud is gwait no ?


Censor this one, Moderator. You know why.


Yes do as you're told by the fake one.
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Karnal
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #117 - Jun 18th, 2014 at 1:26am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:27pm:
Karnal wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:18pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 6:49pm:
Quote:
For Mantena, Gandhi is a “connected critic” because of the stance he adopted. As a critic of the British Empire, he self-consciously presented himself as a loyal British subject who demanded that the empire make good on its promise to provide political equality and protection for all the subjects and, thus, an end to racial discrimination. Despite the extra-legality of some of his methods, he demonstrated a deep respect for the law in his civil disobedience. Second, as a critic of radical and extremist forms of Indian nationalism, Gandhi acknowledged the unhappiness of militant nationalists but believed their elitist methods, which excluded India’s peasant millions, would achieve merely a change of masters, not a change of rule. Finally, as a critic of inequality in the Hindu social order, in his disputes with Hindu orthodoxy, Gandhi claimed to be the most orthodox of all. According to Mantena’s interpretation of Gandhi, such criticism belongs resolutely to the plane of action and not to the plane of contemplation.


In other words, he was a classic wind-up merchant, using the Brit's own standards against them. Fancy trying to tell the Brahmins that they can't be superior to the Shadras any more? Gandhi was the first troll. Certainly not a spineless apologist.


Good to see you doing some research on the topic, FD. I see where you’re going with this.

By trying to overturn the caste system, Gandhi was practicing Taqqiya.

Cunning, no?


You are preaching intellectually bankrupt spineless apologetics. You have attempted to give it legitimacy by associating it with the views of the great thinkers of the enlightenment, as well as Mandela and Gandhi. You have failed. Again.


Good point, FD. Haven’t we heard it before?

Oh - you’re doing a Y and quoting yourself to save time.

I can see why you’d start a thread on a useful subject like this to enlighten everyone and then just end up playing a recording of yourself.

You’re expressing your Freeedom.
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« Last Edit: Jun 18th, 2014 at 1:32am by Karnal »  
 
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Soren
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #118 - Jun 21st, 2014 at 5:01pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jun 15th, 2014 at 7:52pm:
Excellent. Now that we’re back to civil discourse again, shall we discuss Mandella?

Twenty-odd years in the most repressive of jails, saw close friends murdered by his opponents in front of his eyes, and lost numerous friends and family members on the outside. They beg him to make concessions and get released, and he sticks it out, all the while making friends with his jailers.

When he finally does get out and gets elected president, he doesn’t seek revenge or try to get his own back, he begins a process of reconciliation with the people who took most of his life.

Was this a good thing? South Africans did not get to witness the purification of justice that people saw, for example, at the end of WWII. To this day, blacks are very resentful of whites in South Africa, although for the current generation this resentment has important economic causes.

So I ask you this. Mandella: Freeedom-loving nation builder or limp-wristed spineless apologist?

I’ll give your reply a good read, FD.



Jail made him a better man.

Without jail he would have become a long forgotten black terrorist.

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Karnal
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Re: apologist-approved criticsm
Reply #119 - Jun 21st, 2014 at 8:29pm
 
Yes, dear boy, but the aim of keeping him in jail was to make him a long forgotten terrorist.

And all Mandela had to do to get out of jail was publicly renounce armed struggle.

He never did.

Jailing Mandela had the opposite effect of what the regime intended. But when he was released and became leader, there was no better friend to the old regime than Mandela. Without him, they would all have been executed. At the very least, they would have been killed in an almost inevitable civil war.

We apologists are you old boys’ best friends, dear chap. Always, absolutely, never ever.
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