Australian Politics Forum - Kill apostates=Islam's survival

moses

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #15 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 3:43pm

The qur'an definitely says to kill apostates:

qur'an: 4.88 - What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.

Allah has made them return (to unbelief) in other words allah has made apostates of them.

qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of Allah; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

disbelieve as they disbelieve, means they are apostates, they emigrate in the way of allah, means they become muslims, they join islam, then if they turn their backs, means they have become apostates, they turn their back on islam. it is then the duty of muslims to slay them

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #16 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 4:49pm

A complete lie moses. It is talking about people who are openly at war with the muslim state. Read the next verses:

4:90
Quote:

Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

4:91
Quote:

You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

in short: killing unbelievers who are not physically trying to destroy the muslim state is absolutely forbidden.

Quran 2:256 is absolutely clear: "there is no compulsion in religion".

Elsewhere the Quran gives guidance for how muslim should engage in debate against people who have rejected faith, and to, as a last resort, part company with them (if they are trying to lead them astray). How does this make sense if muslims are supposed to simply kill them?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival Reply #17 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 4:51pm In fact 4:90 couldn't be more clear on the prohibition of killing non-hostile apostates/unbelievers: So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40249 Gender:	Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival Reply #18 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 5:58pm A complete lie Gandalf. Ask ALL the muslims countries that kill apostates You go and make them see how wrong they are.
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moses

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #19 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:20pm

Grand Duke Imam Gandalf wrote:
Quote:

4:91 You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

Sorry to bust your priori bubble of deceit there Gandi.

But 4 91 clearly states that if they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief I.E. apostasy then seize them and kill them

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Soren

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #20 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 4:49pm:

in short: killing unbelievers who are not physically trying to destroy the muslim state is absolutely forbidden.

Opposing the Muslim state - is that trying to destroy it?

By definition, yes.

So those who do not submit are either dhimmis or they are the enemy.

In the Muslim state, is a Muslim allowed to convert to Christianity or other religions or to abandon religion completely and declare himself an atheist?

No.

So who's left to be spared by this supposed magnanimity, Gandy?

Nobody.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #21 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:30pm

moses wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:20pm:

Sorry to bust your priori bubble of deceit there Gandi.

moses, you clearly have difficulties comprehending the words "if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands".. as in...

if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them.

Come on moses, give us your best spin - explain how that is *NOT* saying you are forbidden from killing apostates who are not being hostile and want peace with you.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 94452 Gender:	Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival Reply #22 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:30pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 5:58pm: A complete lie Gandalf. Ask ALL the muslims countries that kill apostates You go and make them see how wrong they are. That’s right. What are you waiting for, G? You go and make the Moslem countries see how wrong they are.
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #23 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:39pm

Soren wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:29pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 4:49pm:

in short: killing unbelievers who are not physically trying to destroy the muslim state is absolutely forbidden.

Opposing the Muslim state - is that trying to destroy it?

By definition, yes.

So those who do not submit are either dhimmis or they are the enemy.

In the Muslim state, is a Muslim allowed to convert to Christianity or other religions or to abandon religion completely and declare himself an atheist?

No.

So who's left to be spared by this supposed magnanimity, Gandy?

Nobody.

in short gandalf, either you or many Islamic nations are wrong.

so you go and prove them wrong, then come back.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #24 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:40pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:30pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 5:58pm:

A complete lie Gandalf.

Ask ALL the muslims countries that kill apostates

You go and make them see how wrong they are.

That’s right. What are you waiting for, G? You go and make the Moslem countries see how wrong they are.

since they all follow the same book, should not be a problem

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival Reply #25 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:41pm Soren wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:29pm: Opposing the Muslim state - is that trying to destroy it? By definition, yes. Whose definition - yours? I gave you the verses - and it is very clear, those who offer peace are not to be harmed.
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moses

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #26 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 7:24pm

Grand Duke Imam Gandalf wrote:
Quote:

moses, you clearly have difficulties comprehending the words "if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands".. as in...

if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them.

Come on moses, give us your best spin - explain how that is *NOT* saying you are forbidden from killing apostates who are not being hostile and want peace with you.

Yes Gandi let's dissect 4.91:

You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people.

Says you will find people who want security from muslims and their own people

Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it.

Says they fall back into the influence of disbelief (apostasy)

So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

1/.Those people who want your security but don't want islam (are apostates) must leave they are thrown out they must withdraw,

2/. They must offer you peace or restrain their hands, well what sort of peace offer does the muslim want from these people after all they have already come to the muslims wanting security, one would imagine that already entailed peace and restraint.

3/. Seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. Well why does the muslim have to chase and overtake the apostates? Overtaking infers that the apostates are departing from the muslims.

4/. There is a clear authorization made against apostates, muslims can kill them if they don't leave, or if they don't offer some weird sort of peace and restraint, not covered by asking muslims for security.

So I'd say that 4.88 & 4.89 show the clear cut authority for muslims to kill apostates.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #27 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 7:39pm

Quote:

......A Sudanese court has given a 27-year-old woman until Thursday to abandon her Christian faith or face a death sentence, judicial sources have said.

Mariam Yahya Ibrahim Ishag, who was born to a Muslim father, was charged with apostasy, as well as adultery, for marrying a Christian man, something prohibited for Muslim women to do and which makes the marriage void.
.....

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2014/05/sudan-woman-faces-death-penalty-apo...

who is the complete liar ?
Gandalf or sudan ?

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Mattywisk

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #28 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 7:47pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:30pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 5:58pm:

A complete lie Gandalf.

Ask ALL the muslims countries that kill apostates

You go and make them see how wrong they are.

That’s right. What are you waiting for, G? You go and make the Moslem countries see how wrong they are.

Better off letting military might do that. Grin

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #29 - Jun 20^th, 2014 at 7:47pm

Quote:

..........At some point the death penalty for apostasy was widely accepted among Muslims and many of us feel that what our earlier generations accepted must be correct and must be accepted by us also........

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/apostasy1.htm

another complete liar or another complete Gandalf lie

I vote for gandalf being the complete liar.

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