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Kill apostates=Islam's survival (Read 5826 times)

Baronvonrort

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #45 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 9:17am

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 21^st, 2014 at 12:23am:

Mattywisk wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 7:50pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 4:51pm:

In fact 4:90 couldn't be more clear on the prohibition of killing non-hostile apostates/unbelievers:

So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

Funny how the Quaran contradicts itself though.

Not really. All major religious texts do, including the Torah and the Bible. It comes from them being edited, you realise? Roll Eyes

Muslims claim there are no contradictions in the Quran,ex muslims say the Quran is riddled with contradictions.

The fine print in the Quran says it is not from Allah-
Quote:

Then do they not reflect upon the Quran? If it had been from any other than Allah they would have found within it much contradicition.
quran.com/4/82

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 29281 Gender:	Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival Reply #46 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 12:56pm Just a repeat for GDIG... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/sudan/10861889/Su...
Back to top	"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais IP Logged

moses

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #47 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 3:25pm

Grand Duke Imam Gandalf wrote: Quote:

Basic english comprehension is apparently not your forte moses.

Do you understand the meaning of the word "or"?

As in:

So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands...

Or in other words, apostates are free to stay with them if they restrain their hands. If, and only if they are not prepared to do that, they must withdraw.

In fact they are not even obliged to make peace - they only have to restrain their hands

Stop being so dishonest moses.

4.91: You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people.======= Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. ===== So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands,======= then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. ======= And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

Why would people wish to obtain security from the muslims, if this security did not entail peace and restraint in the first place?

The 2nd part says that these people may return to the influence of unbelief, (apostasy).

The third part then threatens the apostates with expulsion first (they must withdraw), a renewed version of the peace and restraint implied in the original security agreement.

Then if the apostates don't fill the conditions set down by the muslims they are to be overtaken (hunted down) and killed

muslims have the clear authorization to kill apostates.

4.88 4.89 are clear cut instructions to murder apostates, 4.91 also imposes severe restrictions on unbelievers, if the apostate does not meet these limitations then he is to be killed also.

There is nothing in the qur'an that does not reek of compulsion to join islam or face death.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #48 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 4:38pm

moses wrote on Jun 21^st, 2014 at 3:25pm:

Why would people wish to obtain security from the muslims, if this security did not entail peace and restraint in the first place?

Again, basic reading comprehension and the importance of understanding the word "or"...

Quote:

they do not withdraw from you

offer you peace

restrain their hands

Not really getting through is it moses?

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #49 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 4:46pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:41pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 6:29pm:

Opposing the Muslim state - is that trying to destroy it?

By definition, yes.

Whose definition - yours?

I gave you the verses - and it is very clear, those who offer peace are not to be harmed.

What about the rest opf what I asked you.

OK for Muslims to convert to Christianity under the caliphate? To become atheists? No probs?

Not even in Saudi Arabia or Iran, the closest we have to what a sunni or shia caliphate would look like.
Come to think of it, in a sunni caliphate, is it OK to convert to the shia version of Islam? Of course not. Not even in the West do the sunnis and shia rub along.

The endless Islamic civil war is rolling along, as it has been since the death of Mohammed The west can interfere fully (Afghanista, Iraq), a little bit (Labia) or not at all (Syria) but the result is the same - the gruesome Muslims civil war goes on.

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Soren

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #50 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 4:50pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 21^st, 2014 at 12:23am:

Mattywisk wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 7:50pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 4:51pm:

Funny how the Quaran contradicts itself though.

Not really. All major religious texts do, including the Torah and the Bible. It comes from them being edited, you realise? Roll Eyes

Oh, but that's where you go wrong, laddie.
The Koran is not edited, don't you know. It's been like this for eternity, immutable, not a letter out of place.

Utterly unchangeable since the beginning of time.
Just ask Gandy.

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Grand Duke Imam Mahdi

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #51 - Jun 21^st, 2014 at 7:57pm

That is correct, the Quar'an goes out of its way to contradict itself. If I want to commit murder I just quote what I like that supports it as it hasn't been usurped by any latter teaching at all, thats not the case with the bible. A muslim can pull whatever he likes to support his abuse, murder, oppression or living as a so called moderate. The bibles teachings on Jesus are largely the same and consistent across all major translations. The Quar'an wasn't even around in Mohammed's day contrary to the tales spun either. It is just re badged paganism. 98% of every practice made by people in it came from the pagan traditions of the day. Even the Kaba was ripped off Hubal the moon god worship. Mohammed even tried to include the moon god worshipers in islam by introducing the worship of the moon god Hubals 3 daughers. Satanic verses anyone ? Grin

When the hordes wouldn't go for it he made out satan made him do it Grin

. Silly man. Today muslims kiss the meteorite in the kaba which mohammed pulled from Hubal (moon god worship) to make it Allah worship. Roll Eyes

The dopes that believe this today are largely a bit backward mentally.

Air is provided by God, not the muslim fictitious one, enjoy it while you can.

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moses

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Re: Kill apostates=Islam's survival
Reply #52 - Jun 22^nd, 2014 at 3:48pm

Grand Duke Imam Gandalf wrote:
Quote:

Again, basic reading comprehension and the importance of understanding the word "or"...

So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands

Not really getting through is it moses?

One more time for your sake Gandi:

qur'an: 4.88 - What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.

Allah has made them return (to unbelief) in other words allah has made apostates of them. you shall by no means find a way for him means that muslims are not to help them in any way.

qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until [highlight]they emigrate in the way of Allah; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

disbelieve as they disbelieve, means they are apostates, they emigrate in the way of allah, means they become muslims, they join islam, then if they turn their backs, means they have become apostates, they turn their back on islam. it is then the duty of muslims to slay them

qur'an 4.91: You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people.======= Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. ===== So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands,======= then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. ======= And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

People who wish to obtain security would automatically have peace and restraint as part of their offer.

The 2nd part says that these people may return to the influence of unbelief, (apostasy).

The third part then threatens the apostates with expulsion as the first option (they must withdraw), the second and third options are, a renewed version of the peace and restraint implied in the original security agreement.

Then if the apostates don't fill the conditions set down by the muslims they are to be overtaken (hunted down) and killed

muslims have the clear authorization to kill apostates.

So 4.88 4.89 definitely say that allah creates apostates, muslims are not to help them, if the unbelievers do join islam then leave, muslims are to unreservedly kill them.

4.91 imposes severe restrictions on unbelievers, 1st they are to be expelled 2nd and 3rd they have more punishing peace and restraint limits set on them above and beyond the original security arrangements, if the apostate does not meet these limitations then he is to be killed also.

qur'an 4.88 4.89 4.91 all incorporate the oppression, cruelty and homicidal blood lust of islamic ideology, with their unequivocal teachings that mass murder is quiet o.k. for muslims to commit. allah says so.

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