Australian Politics Forum - Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea

ian

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #30 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:07pm

|dev|null wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 2:30pm:

ian wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 10:41am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 9:25am:

Morrison officially calls boat people “illegal” in an attempt to convey the impression that they are criminals, when in fact they commit no offence at all by coming here as they do.

Clever spin but Morrison is correct. Just because no offence is committed does not make the fact of the entry legal, it is still an illegal act to enter without a valid visa. You and the author are under the illusion that an illegal act must have a penalty, this is incorrect.

Actually, it isn't. The Immigration Act officially declares it "unlawful" NOT "illegal". Grin

refugee advocates, immigration lawyers, and the whole of the legal system in australia agrees that these people are entering illegally under the migration act. There is no debate on this except from simpletons.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #31 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:10pm

austranger wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 2:35pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 2:30pm:

ian wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 10:41am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 9:25am:

Morrison officially calls boat people “illegal” in an attempt to convey the impression that they are criminals, when in fact they commit no offence at all by coming here as they do.

Clever spin but Morrison is correct. Just because no offence is committed does not make the fact of the entry legal, it is still an illegal act to enter without a valid visa. You and the author are under the illusion that an illegal act must have a penalty, this is incorrect.

Actually, it isn't. The Immigration Act officially declares it "unlawful" NOT "illegal". Grin

"unlawful" NOT "illegal".

Care to explain the difference, especially in how it applies in this circumstance?

Something illegal is expressly proscribed by statute, and something unlawful is just not expressly authorised.

Entry by an asylum seeker without a visa is not expressly proscribed in the Migration Act. It's not a criminal offense, therefore, it's not illegal.

However, entry without a visa is not expressly authorised, therefore, it is unlawful.

We've been through this a hundred times. I assumed everyone was clear on the facts by now. It's not illegal, and Section 14 of the Act makes that perfectly clear.

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ian

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #32 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:10pm

|dev|null wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 2:42pm:

austranger wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 2:35pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 2:30pm:

ian wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 10:41am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 9:25am:

Morrison officially calls boat people “illegal” in an attempt to convey the impression that they are criminals, when in fact they commit no offence at all by coming here as they do.

Clever spin but Morrison is correct. Just because no offence is committed does not make the fact of the entry legal, it is still an illegal act to enter without a valid visa. You and the author are under the illusion that an illegal act must have a penalty, this is incorrect.

Actually, it isn't. The Immigration Act officially declares it "unlawful" NOT "illegal". Grin

"unlawful" NOT "illegal".

Care to explain the difference, especially in how it applies in this circumstance? Cool

"Illegal" assumes a judgement has been made by a properly convened judicial authority against the individual concerned. In this case, the Immigration Review Tribunal.

"Unlawful" simply states that it is against the law. No judgement has been made as to whether or not the individual is guilty of the offence they are being charged with. Grin

totally incorrect, as I stated, simply because an act is illegal does not make it bound to a judgement or a penalty. Its quite clear that anyone who enters australia without a valid visa is doing so illegally despite the fact there is no penalty prescribed by law.

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ian

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #33 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:12pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:10pm:

It's not a criminal offense, therefore, it's not illegal.

Incorrect, an act does not have to be a criminal offense to be illegal. despite which it would not be possible to jail the crew on the people smuggling boats if their cargo were not being smuggled illegally, you simply have nowhere to go with this. You are wrong and I have continually shown you are wrong.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74257 Gender:	Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea Reply #34 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:13pm Once again Morriscum shows what a pathetic ecxuse for a human being he is ....
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #35 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:14pm

ian wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:10pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 2:42pm:

austranger wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 2:35pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 2:30pm:

ian wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 10:41am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 9:25am:

Morrison officially calls boat people “illegal” in an attempt to convey the impression that they are criminals, when in fact they commit no offence at all by coming here as they do.

Clever spin but Morrison is correct. Just because no offence is committed does not make the fact of the entry legal, it is still an illegal act to enter without a valid visa. You and the author are under the illusion that an illegal act must have a penalty, this is incorrect.

Actually, it isn't. The Immigration Act officially declares it "unlawful" NOT "illegal". Grin

"unlawful" NOT "illegal".

Care to explain the difference, especially in how it applies in this circumstance? Cool

"Illegal" assumes a judgement has been made by a properly convened judicial authority against the individual concerned. In this case, the Immigration Review Tribunal.

"Unlawful" simply states that it is against the law. No judgement has been made as to whether or not the individual is guilty of the offence they are being charged with. Grin

totally incorrect, as I stated, simply because an act is illegal does not make it bound to a judgement or a penalty. Its quite clear that anyone who enters australia without a valid visa is doing so illegally despite the fact there is no penalty prescribed by law.

No, they enter unlawfully.

Entering without a visa is not proscribed in the Act, therefore, it is not illegal. It is not an offense.

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bogarde73 Gold Member Offline Anti-Global & Contra Mundum Posts: 18443 Gender:	Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea Reply #36 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:16pm You do what you have to to keep the invasion at bay. And you don't talk about it, you don't feed the enemy.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #37 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:22pm

ian wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:12pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:10pm:

It's not a criminal offense, therefore, it's not illegal.

Incorrect, an act does not have to be a criminal offense to be illegal. despite which it would not be possible to jail the crew on the people smuggling boats if their cargo were not being smuggled illegally, you simply have nowhere to go with this. You are wrong and I have continually shown you are wrong.

No, I am quite correct. In fact, I've proven you wrong time and time again over this issue.

Entering without a visa is not proscribed in the Act, therefore, it is not illegal.

However, seeing as it is not expressly authorised under the Act, it is unlawful.

Unlawful, but certainly not illegal. Moreover, Section 14 of the Act establishes that fact beyond all doubt.

Legal Studies 101

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ian

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #38 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:22pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:14pm:

[
No, they enter unlawfully.

Entering without a visa is not proscribed in the Act, therefore, it is not illegal. It is not an offense.

Quote:

People smugglers are individuals or groups who assist others to illegally enter a country. In the case of Australia, people smugglers provide air or sea access.

http://www.afp.gov.au/policing/people-smuggling.aspx

we can continue if you like?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #39 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:25pm

ian wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:12pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:10pm:

It's not a criminal offense, therefore, it's not illegal.

... despite which it would not be possible to jail the crew on the people smuggling boats if their cargo were not being smuggled illegally ...

People smuggling is an offence. It's proscribed in an Act. It's illegal.

Who said people smuggling wasn't illegal?

Entering without a visa, however, is not illegal (it's unlawful).

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Rhet-Oracle Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 408	Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea Reply #40 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:28pm Organised and helped by the Greens and Labor, this is a set-up to break the 'no boats' record of Scott Morrison. This lot had GPS and sat-phone and had made calls to a media outlet on Australia mainland and had phone numbers of various people including members of the Green Party and probably Labor.
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John Smith

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #41 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:31pm

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:28pm:

Organised and helped by the Greens and Labor, this is a set-up to break the 'no boats' record of Scott Morrison. This lot had GPS and sat-phone and had made calls to a media outlet on Australia mainland and had phone numbers of various people including members of the Green Party and probably Labor.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #42 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:32pm

ian wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:22pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:14pm:

[
No, they enter unlawfully.

Entering without a visa is not proscribed in the Act, therefore, it is not illegal. It is not an offense.

Quote:

People smugglers are individuals or groups who assist others to illegally enter a country. In the case of Australia, people smugglers provide air or sea access.

http://www.afp.gov.au/policing/people-smuggling.aspx

we can continue if you like?

Absolutely.

I'll continue until you do what you always do: give up once you realise your mistake, and then log off.

It's not illegal.

People smuggling certainly is illegal, as it is expressly proscribed in an Act.

Entering without a visa, however, is not illegal: it is not proscribed in any Act.

The terminology used on that website is incorrect. It is a website, not a piece of Australian legislation.

Once you show a piece of Australian legislation that proscribes entering without a visa, we will have something to discuss.

Until then, you are on the losing end of this argument.

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Rhet-Oracle Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 408	Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea Reply #43 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:32pm Are you the one in the middle dipstick?
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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74257 Gender:	Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea Reply #44 - Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:40pm Rhet-Oracle wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 3:32pm: Are you the one in the middle dipstick? you're the one on the right? right?
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