Australian Politics Forum - Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea

greggerypeccary

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #60 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 7:53pm

ian wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 5:04pm:

We are not talking about "an act" we are talking about how the perpetrator is described.

You may have noticed how the ABC describes a person who has allegedly committed a criminal act - they use the word "allegedly" for a reason, a legal reason. You cannot describe a person as a criminal unless they have been convicted of a criminal offence, otherwise they'll sue the pants off you.

Same goes for Asylum Seekers. They have not been convicted of any illegal act. They may have committed an "unlawful" act but they haven't been convicted of anything.

As it is, coming to Australia and seeking Asylum as you have been told many times is not an illegal act. Arriving by boat without documentation, is an unlawful act. If you fail to produce the documentation required and your claim for Asylum is disallowed, then you can be described as an "illegal immigrant". NOT BEFORE. This is basic law. Go put the Dunce's Hat on, sit on the stool in the corner. Grin

any person who enters australia without a valid visa does so illegally, this may not make them a criminal however it is still an illegal act.

Incorrect.

Entering without a visa is not proscribed in any piece of Australian legislation.

In order for something to be illegal, it must be proscribed in an Act. This is a simple fact. Not my opinion: a legal fact.

That's the way it is. I thought we were all clear on this.

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Aussie

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #61 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 7:56pm

red baron wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 7:52pm:

Whatever happens at sea stays at sea, seems like a good outcome any way you poke it.

Reality check, word is out that the huge majority just won't make it to Manus Island let alone Australia and the clientele has dried up, good one for Aus and its long suffering taxpayers.

Remember the days of Labor and the armada of boats lining up for our handouts? Bad dream? More like a bloody nightmare.

Hang on Mr Baron. This Operation Sovereign Borders is not about that. It is all about ensuring women and children and families don't drown at sea after paying Achmed to jump on a leaky boat to head to Australia. It is all about that because Mr Abbott told us it was. Please keep that in mind, thank you very much.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #62 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 7:56pm

ian wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 5:04pm:

We are not talking about "an act" we are talking about how the perpetrator is described.

You may have noticed how the ABC describes a person who has allegedly committed a criminal act - they use the word "allegedly" for a reason, a legal reason. You cannot describe a person as a criminal unless they have been convicted of a criminal offence, otherwise they'll sue the pants off you.

Same goes for Asylum Seekers. They have not been convicted of any illegal act. They may have committed an "unlawful" act but they haven't been convicted of anything.

As it is, coming to Australia and seeking Asylum as you have been told many times is not an illegal act. Arriving by boat without documentation, is an unlawful act. If you fail to produce the documentation required and your claim for Asylum is disallowed, then you can be described as an "illegal immigrant". NOT BEFORE. This is basic law. Go put the Dunce's Hat on, sit on the stool in the corner. Grin

any person who enters australia without a valid visa does so illegally, this may not make them a criminal however it is still an illegal act. How do we know this I hear you ask. Simples, the crime of people smuggling depends on their human cargo being transported illegally, without the illegal entry the crime of people smuggling can not be proved. we currently have a large number of people incarcerated for people smuggling. Greggary cant seem to grasp this, I hope you can.

Another lie from ian.

I have said, on several occasions, that people smuggling is illegal. I have never said that it is not a crime.

People smuggling is proscribed in a piece of Australian legislation. As such, it is an illegal act.

Entering without a visa, however, is not proscribed in any piece of Australian legislation. Therefore, it is not illegal.

I thought everyone was clear on this.

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red baron Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10204 Blue Mountains Gender:	Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea Reply #63 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:03pm Tell you what I'll keep in mind Aussie, the fact that Tony Abbott has plugged that bloody, great, wide gaping hole up north. That's what I'll keep in mind. One of the few things his Government have got right.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #64 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:11pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

ian wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 5:04pm:

We are not talking about "an act" we are talking about how the perpetrator is described.

You may have noticed how the ABC describes a person who has allegedly committed a criminal act - they use the word "allegedly" for a reason, a legal reason. You cannot describe a person as a criminal unless they have been convicted of a criminal offence, otherwise they'll sue the pants off you.

Same goes for Asylum Seekers. They have not been convicted of any illegal act. They may have committed an "unlawful" act but they haven't been convicted of anything.

As it is, coming to Australia and seeking Asylum as you have been told many times is not an illegal act. Arriving by boat without documentation, is an unlawful act. If you fail to produce the documentation required and your claim for Asylum is disallowed, then you can be described as an "illegal immigrant". NOT BEFORE. This is basic law. Go put the Dunce's Hat on, sit on the stool in the corner. Grin

any person who enters australia without a valid visa does so illegally, this may not make them a criminal however it is still an illegal act.

Incorrect.

Entering without a visa is not proscribed in any piece of Australian legislation.

In order for something to be illegal, it must be proscribed in an Act. This is a simple fact. Not my opinion: a legal fact.

That's the way it is. I thought we were all clear on this.

Actually it IS proscribed by UN legislation...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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aquascoot Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 34360 Gender:	Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea Reply #65 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:11pm Well done Morrison. Edward De Bono would be proud of your marvellous lateral thinking ability. Go hard son, your nation needs you
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #66 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:15pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:11pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

ian wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 5:04pm:

We are not talking about "an act" we are talking about how the perpetrator is described.

You may have noticed how the ABC describes a person who has allegedly committed a criminal act - they use the word "allegedly" for a reason, a legal reason. You cannot describe a person as a criminal unless they have been convicted of a criminal offence, otherwise they'll sue the pants off you.

Same goes for Asylum Seekers. They have not been convicted of any illegal act. They may have committed an "unlawful" act but they haven't been convicted of anything.

As it is, coming to Australia and seeking Asylum as you have been told many times is not an illegal act. Arriving by boat without documentation, is an unlawful act. If you fail to produce the documentation required and your claim for Asylum is disallowed, then you can be described as an "illegal immigrant". NOT BEFORE. This is basic law. Go put the Dunce's Hat on, sit on the stool in the corner. Grin

any person who enters australia without a valid visa does so illegally, this may not make them a criminal however it is still an illegal act.

Incorrect.

Entering without a visa is not proscribed in any piece of Australian legislation.

In order for something to be illegal, it must be proscribed in an Act. This is a simple fact. Not my opinion: a legal fact.

That's the way it is. I thought we were all clear on this.

Actually it IS proscribed by UN legislation...

"UN legislation"?

Really?

Please continue ...

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38526 Gender:	Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea Reply #67 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:21pm Gizmo: Quote: Actually it IS proscribed by UN legislation... 1. What is the it to which you refer? 2. What is the legislation to which you refer?
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 136426 Gender:	Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea Reply #68 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:23pm
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austranger

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #69 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:31pm

So far as I'm aware the immigration act requires that anyone entering Oz must have a current visa, and that those seeking to settle here permanently must first be assessed and granted right of entry.
Therefore those forcing a landing anywhere here without such visa or approval are contravening the act, which is against the law, thus, illegal.

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Any day with a smile in it is a good day

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gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea Reply #70 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:36pm Aussie wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:21pm: Gizmo: Quote: Actually it IS proscribed by UN legislation... 1. What is the it to which you refer? 2. What is the legislation to which you refer? Well it's not anything like 'proscibed'
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #71 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:37pm

austranger wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

So far as I'm aware the immigration act requires that anyone entering Oz must have a current visa, and that those seeking to settle here permanently must first be assessed and granted right of entry.
Therefore those forcing a landing anywhere here without such visa or approval are contravening the act, which is against the law, thus, illegal.

Could you please provide a link to the Section of the relevant Act that proscribes entering without a visa?

Not too much to ask, surely.

If you can provide that, it would indeed show that entering without a visa is illegal.

Because, as we all know, in order for something to be illegal it must be proscribed by an Act. Agreed?

So, over to you ...

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #72 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:42pm

Refugee council warns Tamil asylum seekers' lives in danger amid reports Australia handing them back to Sri Lankan navy

The Tamil Refugee Council claims at least 11 people who Australia has reportedly handed over to the Sri Lankan navy have been tortured by that country's intelligence services.

It has been a week since the Tamil community, refugee supporters and the media last heard from a boat close to Christmas Island carrying 153 Tamil asylum seekers.

They reportedly are, or have been, aboard an Australian Customs ship and, despite having claims for protection, will reportedly be, or have been, handed over to the Sri Lankan navy.

Tamil Refugee Council spokesman Aran Mylvaganam says he has spoken to a relative of people who were on the boat.

"There were at least 11 people on this boat who had been arrested by Sri Lanka's intelligence forces and had been tortured," Mr Mylvaganam said.

If they are handed over to the Sri Lankan authorities we are certain their lives are in danger.
Tamil Refugee Council spokesman Aran Mylvaganam
He said the 11 would appear to have genuine refugee claims, and there must have been more people on the ship in a similar situation.

"There was at least a lot more, but 11 people have been accused of being members of the Tamil Tigers and were tortured by the Sri Lankan army.

"He [the relative] knows them. He was a close friend of these 11 people but he has at least five relatives on this boat who had been harassed by the Sri Lankan intelligence agencies in the past."

Asked if any on board were Tamil Tigers, Mr Mylvaganam said that was unclear.

"We don't know it and he doesn't know it, but they were accused of being members of the Tamil Tigers.

"They fled Sri Lanka to a refugee camp in India and from there got on a boat and came to Australia. If they are handed over to the Sri Lankan authorities we are certain their lives are in danger.

"Those who have been tortured in the past are at higher risk of facing more problems of the Sri Lanka intelligence agency. We are very worried.

"We have now got more information about these refugees and we know that if we don't keep an eye on them, the Sri Lankan authorities will torture them."

www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-04/tamil-asylum-seekers-flee-sri-lankan-after-tortur...

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Abbott Mob Illegally Processing Refugees @ Sea
Reply #73 - Jul 4^th, 2014 at 8:43pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2014 at 9:25am:

Stop the lies Morriscum!

Silence on missing asylum seeker boat a disgrace to the nation

I never knew there were so many rats in the nation's silos! Self-hating anti-Westerners who can't wait for the International Socialists to tear down the national borders and allow the Third and Fourth World to come swamping the West like a biblical plague.

I'm thinking of setting up a little candle-lit shrine in the corner of the lounge-room to Abbott and Scott Morrison for the miracles they have performed in just their short time in office.

Little translucent red glass cups with flickering candles inside. Scrolls with gold lettering proclaiming their divine status as miracle workers. Joss-sticks, incense and myrrh. The Whole 9 yards.