Australian Politics Forum - Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology

Soren

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #105 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:19pm

|dev|null wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 3:30pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 3:00pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 12:00pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:45am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 11:54pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 10:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 8:01pm:

hermoine wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 1:33pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 1:32pm:

Still not betting, dear?

I'll bet my soul that India has very few of any race other than mixed asians.

"Race" as a concept is a social construct, Hermoine.

Listen to Dr Brain and pluck out your lying eyes, Hermie.

http://www.the-chiefexecutive.com/contractor_images/lilly/3-south-african-woman....

http://www.thelovelyplanet.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/By-bentborn_Denmark.jp...

If you see any difference, it is entirely socially constructed.

Oh, yes.

Ask Dr Brain.

The colour of peoples' skin, the shape of their eyes, the colour of their eyes, etc. are merely superficial evolutionary adaptations to differing environment conditions. Genetically we are all the same, with some minor variations caused by differing combinations of the same genes. If those superficial evolutionary adaptations actually meant that each of the supposed "races" was different, truly genetically different, as the racists claim, then they could not interbreed, which they can. Roll Eyes

Thanks, Dr Brain.
The only trouble with all this is that human interactions and relationships are not "genetic" or "evolutionary" but interpersonal. And on that level, we take all sorts of things into consideration, including looks, manners, and all sorts of other outward signs of the others' inner personality, character, etc.
We do this because we are keen to know what kind of person he is. And previous interactions and information about the type of person we are dealing with is important.
Stereotypes are important. They have come about due to accumulated experience - and can be changed only by more accumulated experience to the contrary.

Anyone would prefer a well-dressed, well-spoken, well-mannered person to a tattoed, foul-mouthed, dirty one, regardless of what rave either of them is.

Race is not EVERYTHING. But it is evidently not nothing, either.

Are you reinforcing Brian's point that the concept of race is a social construct? Shocked

No.
I am saying that we judge people on the basis of experience with their traits and characteristics that we perceive. That includes their ethnicity, race, how they present, speak, behave. We have a different set of experiences and perceptions of white-haired, well-spoken grannies and gold-toothed, tattooed black gangstas effin' and blindin' - to give you two obviously different exampled that even you couldn't confuse (try though you will).

So, it's all perception rather than actual reality?

Perception OF actual reality. We read each other all the time and form a judgement of others based on our perception of them.
This is why have a shower and dress up properly when you go for a job or on a date. How you are perceived matters.
Everyone knows this, everyone does this. Even you.
There is nothing you can do about your racial characteristics - except choose to go with or go against the recognised stereotype of your type.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #106 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:27pm

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 4:56pm:

How 'bout we all get down to tin-tacks and call a spade a spade, and a shovel a shovel.

How 'bout we drop the word 'race' and talk about breeds instead?

Why bother, Lionel? We have an entire science which we should be using. Its called Genetics. Racists instead believe in Eugenics. Your belief in "breeds" is closer to Eugenics than Genetics. Roll Eyes

I am unsure why people are frightened by either Genetics or feel the need to push their socialised beliefs concerning the artificial construct referred to as "race" on others. Ultimately racism is about a fear of the "other", the person whom is different. Racism in Western Europe in the form we know it, today only started in the 18th century as a means to justify European Imperialism. From it, the discipline of Anthropology was created (the discipline's "dirty secret". ). It has of course developed beyond that but that is it's central core - justifying the domination of others on the basis of physical and social differences.

The reality is that Genetics shows there is only one 'race", the Human one. We are all descended from primarily African humanity and the entire view that the colour of one's skin or the shape of one's eyes or their colour and the colour of one's hair, determines your membership of a supposedly superior or inferior group of humanity is totally false.

Such beliefs are the result of social construction around myths, fears and ignorant misunderstandings of the reality of humanity. That some here keep attempting to perpetuate such views suggests they aren't interested in reality.

Are you, Lionel? Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #107 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:33pm

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:45am:

Thanks, Dr Brain.

Whom?

Quote:

The only troublke with all this is that human interactions and relationships are not "genetic" or "evolutionary" but interpersonal. And on that level, we take all sorts of things into consideration, including looks, manners, and all sorts of other outward signs of the others' inner personality, character, etc.
We do this because we are keen to know what kind of person he is. And previous interactions and information about the type of person we are dealing with is important.
Stereotypes are important. They have come about due to accumulated experience - and can be changed only by more accumulated experience to the contrary.

They can be challenged but for those that prefer their stereotypes, Soren they invariably revert to them than accept that what they learnt - as a social construct - from their parents may well be wrong. This has been demonstrated time after time in our history. What is required a great event, usually a revolution, a war, natural disaster to shake people out of their fear of the "other".

Everything you've described, Soren is indeed a "social construct", something which was created by people and which has no scientific backing. There is no way the colour of a person's skin or the shape or colour of their eyes or hair and so on, determines their intelligence or their abilities. Yet it is those superficialities that people like you and your ilk will continually harp upon. Roll Eyes

You may as well resort to Phrenology. It is about as accurate. Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #108 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:39pm

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:19pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 3:30pm:

So, it's all perception rather than actual reality?

Perception OF actual reality. We read each other all the time and form a judgement of others based on our perception of them.
This is why have a shower and dress up properly when you go for a job or on a date. How you are perceived matters.
Everyone knows this, everyone does this. Even you.
There is nothing you can do about your racial characteristics - except choose to go with or go against the recognised stereotype of your type.

Everything you've described is a social construct, Soren. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #109 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:56pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:27pm:

The reality is that Genetics shows there is only one 'race", the Human one. We are all descended from primarily African humanity and the entire view that the colour of one's skin or the shape of one's eyes or their colour and the colour of one's hair, determines your membership of a supposedly superior or inferior group of humanity is totally false.

Who said anything about absolutes of superiority/inferiority?

Do you also see dog breeds in these terms? Well seeing as the principles of genetics apply equally to amoeba, dogs and humans alike, you must. Well it's either that or you're either inconsistent or a hypocrite, and we both know you're beyond reproach in those regards.

So what breed is "superior"out of a great dane and a chihuahua? I'd say it's meaningless unless you define what they're superior/inferior at, but I'm not the one telling the story. Genetically, there's not much difference at all. One might even say there's more variation within breeds than between them, if one were inclined to make vacuous remarks. And yet....

I notice some differences, which I just can't mark down as being a "social construct". Do you notice anything like that?

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In the fullness of time...

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Brian Ross

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #110 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 7:01pm

... wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:27pm:

The reality is that Genetics shows there is only one 'race", the Human one. We are all descended from primarily African humanity and the entire view that the colour of one's skin or the shape of one's eyes or their colour and the colour of one's hair, determines your membership of a supposedly superior or inferior group of humanity is totally false.

Who said anything about absolutes of superiority/inferiority?

That is the basis of racism. Have you been paying attention?

Quote:

I notice some differences, which I can't quite attribute to "social construct". How about you?

I notice some superficial differences based upon artificial, forced selection for particular attributes. Essentially speeded up, artificial evolution.

Just as there are only superficial differences between Pygmies and Southern Sudanese or Eskimos and Han or Australian Indigenes and Southern Indians. Roll Eyes

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #111 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 7:16pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

... wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:27pm:

The reality is that Genetics shows there is only one 'race", the Human one. We are all descended from primarily African humanity and the entire view that the colour of one's skin or the shape of one's eyes or their colour and the colour of one's hair, determines your membership of a supposedly superior or inferior group of humanity is totally false.

Who said anything about absolutes of superiority/inferiority?

That is the basis of racism. Have you been paying attention?

Perhaps it is, but it's not relevant to the question of whether race itself is more than a mere "social construct". Please read more carefully in future.

Quote:

I notice some differences, which I can't quite attribute to "social construct". How about you?

I notice some superficial differences based upon artificial, forced selection for particular attributes. Essentially speeded up, artificial evolution.

Just as there are only superficial differences between Pygmies and Southern Sudanese or Eskimos and Han or Australian Indigenes and Southern Indians. Roll Eyes

[/quote]

Something that strikes me as odd is how "genetics" distinguishes between which traits we (and by we, I mean white people) consider superficial characteristics and those we don't, so that it "knows" which traits it will allow variation in.

It seems that an entirely different set of genetic laws apply to our internal organs than what apply to the more "superficial" traits like skin and eye colour. Perhaps our resident geneticist could explain this little quirk of science?

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Lionel Edriess Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1932 Gender:	Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology Reply #112 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 7:37pm Did I mention Homo Sapiens somewhere? What is that? Aren't there breeds within the genus?
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Soren

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #113 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:25pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:27pm:

Racism in Western Europe in the form we know it, today only started in the 18th century as a means to justify European Imperialism. From it, the discipline of Anthropology was created (the discipline's "dirty secret". ). It has of course developed beyond that but that is it's central core - justifying the domination of others on the basis of physical and social differences.

Specious bollocks, Brain, just silly crap.

Or 'social construct' as you would say.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #114 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:50pm

... wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 7:16pm:

Something that strikes me as odd is how "genetics" distinguishes between which traits we (and by we, I mean white people) consider superficial characteristics and those we don't, so that it "knows" which traits it will allow variation in.

It seems that an entirely different set of genetic laws apply to our internal organs than what apply to the more "superficial" traits like skin and eye colour. Perhaps our resident geneticist could explain this little quirk of science?

I am not a geneticist, Wesley. However, I'll attempt to answer your question.

A single word, Wesley - evolution. Our internal organs have evolved to provide what our body requires so they hardly differ nor need to visibly be different, between the various human groups or even individuals. A human liver will look like a liver and function like a liver no matter where you are or who you are. Ditto for all other internal organs. There is minor and subtle variations, which different genetic combinations account for, such as the inability of many some people to metabolise alcohol easily. This often occurs amongst East Asians but can also occur in other human individuals who aren't Asian, as well. If a need develops for humans to develop new or different organs, then evolution will produce it or we'll die out as a species, as do all that cannot adapt to their environment (unless of course we change the environment and force it to adapt to our needs).

Externally, we differ because it is with the external world our body interfaces. We evolve to meet our environmental needs, fastest and this shows in our superficial, external features. Dark skin for the tropics, because we do not need to metabolise as much sunlight for Vitamin D, light skin for upper-latitudes where we do need it. Long noses for cold climates, to warm the air we breath, before it enters our lungs, flat noses for warmer climates where it isn't needed. Epicanthic folds over the eyelids, to help protect them against cold winds, none, where it isn't as necessary. There are numerous examples.

However, in all cases, we share the same genes, we are of the same species and hence the same 'race". There is no inferiority, no superiority, we adapt over time to our environments. I don't doubt in a few thousand years, we'll have no legs, long arms and ten fingers on each hand, with double thumbs. Can you guess why? Wink

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Brian Ross

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #115 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:52pm

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:25pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:27pm:

Racism in Western Europe in the form we know it, today only started in the 18th century as a means to justify European Imperialism. From it, the discipline of Anthropology was created (the discipline's "dirty secret". ). It has of course developed beyond that but that is it's central core - justifying the domination of others on the basis of physical and social differences.

Specious bollocks, Brain, just silly crap.

Or 'social construct' as you would say.

*SIGH*, you can't say I haven't tried, Soren. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology Reply #116 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:53pm Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 7:37pm: Did I mention Homo Sapiens somewhere? What is that? Aren't there breeds within the genus?
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Soren

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #117 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:20pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:25pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:27pm:

Racism in Western Europe in the form we know it, today only started in the 18th century as a means to justify European Imperialism. From it, the discipline of Anthropology was created (the discipline's "dirty secret". ). It has of course developed beyond that but that is it's central core - justifying the domination of others on the basis of physical and social differences.

Specious bollocks, Brain, just silly crap.

Or 'social construct' as you would say.

*SIGH*, you can't say I haven't tried, Soren. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Roll Eyes

You mean you have no idea what to say.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #118 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:24pm

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:20pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:25pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:27pm:

Racism in Western Europe in the form we know it, today only started in the 18th century as a means to justify European Imperialism. From it, the discipline of Anthropology was created (the discipline's "dirty secret". ). It has of course developed beyond that but that is it's central core - justifying the domination of others on the basis of physical and social differences.

Specious bollocks, Brain, just silly crap.

Or 'social construct' as you would say.

*SIGH*, you can't say I haven't tried, Soren. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Roll Eyes

You mean you have no idea what to say.

It's pretty hard to respond to your nonsense on a good day, Soren.

In this case, you could hardly expect Brian to even open his mouth.

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Soren

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Re: Multiculturalism is an anti-Western ideology
Reply #119 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:36pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:24pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:20pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:25pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 6:27pm:

Racism in Western Europe in the form we know it, today only started in the 18th century as a means to justify European Imperialism. From it, the discipline of Anthropology was created (the discipline's "dirty secret". ). It has of course developed beyond that but that is it's central core - justifying the domination of others on the basis of physical and social differences.

Specious bollocks, Brain, just silly crap.

Or 'social construct' as you would say.

*SIGH*, you can't say I haven't tried, Soren. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Roll Eyes

You mean you have no idea what to say.

It's pretty hard to respond to your nonsense on a good day, Soren.

In this case, you could hardly expect Brian to even open his mouth.

You have no idea either. Here was an opportunity for both of you to present a coherent point but neither of you can manage it. Neither of you can EVER manage it. It's not within your capabilities to be coherent.

Game over. Thank you linesmen, than you ball boys.

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