Australian Politics Forum - Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent Reply #30 - Jul 10^th, 2014 at 10:51pm de-Baathification - I believe I mentioned it before. Suggest you look it up.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Laugh till you cry

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 16619
In your happy place
Gender: male

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #31 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 1:18am

Freediver is mentally filtering out the things he doesn't want to acknowledge.

There is no doubt that USA military caused a huge disruption to Sunni society in Iraq that barred them from careers and jobs and left them the ability to work only in their own Sunni communities. The process of de-Baathification, as it was called, was the beginning of intensive and extensive prejudice and discrimination against Sunnis.

Back to top

Please don't thank me. Effusive fawning and obeisance of disciples, mendicants, and foot-kissers embarrass me.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49554
At my desk.

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #32 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 12:20pm

If you aren't willing to talk about it Gandalf, why start a thread on it? This is your chance to complain about America messing up democracy.

Isn't this a bit like complaining that the west did not allow the Nazi party to manage West Germany's transition back to democracy after WWII, and then insisting that it equates to systematic discrimination against white Christians?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40784 Gender:	Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent Reply #33 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 12:37pm Grand Duke Imam Mahdi wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 8:51pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2014 at 9:32pm: ^ people can democratically decide to be undemocratic. What do we call that? Backward muslim
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

Sprintcyclist

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 40784
Gender: male

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #34 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 12:38pm

Grand Duke Imam Mahdi wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 8:47pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Jul 5^th, 2014 at 5:56pm:

Iraq is totally screwed after the misadventures of George W Bush and a stooge like John Howard. Both sought to enrich themselves from death and misery of others. Now there is a chaos in the Middle East far more dangerous than any past situation.

They the muslims themselves are in charge of the chaos no one else. Go have a cry in the corner over George and Howard.It is a shame the muslims are so violent. Nothing can help them no matter who does what to them.

true - Quote:

.............. the muslims are so violent. Nothing can help them no matter .....

their violence is foretold in genesis.

Back to top

Modern Classic Right Wing

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #35 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 12:53pm

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 12:20pm:

If you aren't willing to talk about it Gandalf, why start a thread on it?

I didn't start a thread on it, I answered a question you asked me. The elaboration that you are demanding is in reply#19 - suggest you re-read it, reflect on it, and come back with some sensible questions or debating points.

The marginalisation of the sunnis by the US is common knowledge, but it is not the subject of this particular discussion. You asked me "who is on the side of democracy" - I answered that it is definitely not Maliki, since he is subverting democracy by excluding the sunnis from the political process (again, details in reply#19). Thus the point about your simplistic dichotomy into those "on the side of democracy" and those "on the side of oppression" is that it is patently unfair, and absurd.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49554
At my desk.

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #36 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 7:19pm

Quote:

The elaboration that you are demanding is in reply#19

Where you clarified that the US excluded sunnis by sidelining them? Nothing in that post demonstrates systematic structural discrimination against sunnis. It is just a whinge about them "losing" elections.

Quote:

The marginalisation of the sunnis by the US is common knowledge, but it is not the subject of this particular discussion.

Are we not talking about democracy in Iraq? What could be more relevant than excluding a religious group from the democratic process?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Grappler Deep State Feller

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 85588
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #37 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:54pm

Hold it, Bruvvas!

It seems to me that we are dealing with a number of 'definitions' of what constitutes democracy (remember my shot at Andrei over things being determined by how you define an issue - one man's 'slacker' or ''leaner' is another man's victim of bad policy etc)...

It seems to me some here are basically advocating the democracy of the gun - those with more firepower inherit the earth...

That is most emphatically NOT the workings of democracy - it is the workings of violence and abuse of equalities and rights in the most extreme manner.

Democracy is supposed to work for all - not just for the Bolsheviks with the guns...

Maybe these clowns in Irak should look at Switzerland....... French, German and Italian Swiss get along just fine.

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Laugh till you cry

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 16619
In your happy place
Gender: male

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #38 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 12:22am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:54pm:

Hold it, Bruvvas!

It seems to me that we are dealing with a number of 'definitions' of what constitutes democracy (remember my shot at Andrei over things being determined by how you define an issue - one man's 'slacker' or ''leaner' is another man's victim of bad policy etc)...

It seems to me some here are basically advocating the democracy of the gun - those with more firepower inherit the earth...

That is most emphatically NOT the workings of democracy - it is the workings of violence and abuse of equalities and rights in the most extreme manner.

Democracy is supposed to work for all - not just for the Bolsheviks with the guns...

Maybe these clowns in Irak should look at Switzerland....... French, German and Italian Swiss get along just fine.

French, German and Italian Swiss weren't bombed, shot at, had their houses demolished and then barred from jobs.

Iraq is not Switzerland. At least not after George W Bush and the coalition of the killing finished with it.

Back to top

Please don't thank me. Effusive fawning and obeisance of disciples, mendicants, and foot-kissers embarrass me.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #39 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 12:47am

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 7:19pm:

Where you clarified that the US excluded sunnis by sidelining them? Nothing in that post demonstrates systematic structural discrimination against sunnis. It is just a whinge about them "losing" elections.

The part about Maliki setting up a shadow state to facilitate the dominance of shiites in state institutions, and consolidating power through a "divide and rule" model along sectarian lines - thus effectively excluding sunnis (a minority) from the democratic process. A relevant article to this topic was quoted in post#19 for your convenience. I'm going to take a wild stab and say you haven't read this. Strongly recommend that you do.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Grappler Deep State Feller

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 85588
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #40 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 12:50am

Laugh till you cry wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 12:22am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:54pm:

Hold it, Bruvvas!

It seems to me that we are dealing with a number of 'definitions' of what constitutes democracy (remember my shot at Andrei over things being determined by how you define an issue - one man's 'slacker' or ''leaner' is another man's victim of bad policy etc)...

It seems to me some here are basically advocating the democracy of the gun - those with more firepower inherit the earth...

That is most emphatically NOT the workings of democracy - it is the workings of violence and abuse of equalities and rights in the most extreme manner.

Democracy is supposed to work for all - not just for the Bolsheviks with the guns...

Maybe these clowns in Irak should look at Switzerland....... French, German and Italian Swiss get along just fine.

French, German and Italian Swiss weren't bombed, shot at, had their houses demolished and then barred from jobs.

Iraq is not Switzerland. At least not after George W Bush and the coalition of the killing finished with it.

Damn it, sir! They had centuries of warfare before they settled on a civilised system of power sharing.

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49554
At my desk.

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #41 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 8:28am

Quote:

French, German and Italian Swiss weren't bombed, shot at, had their houses demolished and then barred from jobs.

Quote:

The part about Maliki setting up a shadow state to facilitate the dominance of shiites in state institutions, and consolidating power through a "divide and rule" model along sectarian lines - thus effectively excluding sunnis (a minority) from the democratic process.

So you vote him out. Divide and rule is not undemocratic. It is a standard tactic. Democracy means rule by majority, not rule by minority. You do not need a conspiracy or "shadow state" to explain a minority not getting their way.

Quote:

A relevant article to this topic was quoted in post#19 for your convenience. I'm going to take a wild stab and say you haven't read this. Strongly recommend that you do.

I read it. It contained the same sort of thesaurus waving that you have substituted for a coherent argument here. You have not presented anything close to a rational explanation for how the US excluded sunnis from the democratic process.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #42 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:06am

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 8:28am:

So you vote him out. Divide and rule is not undemocratic. It is a standard tactic. Democracy means rule by majority, not rule by minority.

A key component of a functioning democracy is to maintain and protect the independence of key state institutions like the judiciary. Maliki has been busily interfering with them - including intimidation and arrests, and replacing these bodies with his own cronies. This has enabled him to create a shadow state that can subvert the authority of the parliament - the one democratic tool available to the minority sunnis.

You may think that a democracy is simply having a free and fair vote, which gives the winner carte-blanche to rule as they please. But it is not. Half of democracy is protecting critical independent bodies that independently adjudicate on the constitution and/or other foundations of state to protect against abuse of power - even when its done by fairly elected rulers.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49554 At my desk.	Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent Reply #43 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:59am Let's stick to one fallacy at a time. How has the US effectively excluded sunnis from the democratic process (beyond 'sidelining' them)?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Grappler Deep State Feller

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 85588
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #44 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 11:44am

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:59am:

Let's stick to one fallacy at a time. How has the US effectively excluded sunnis from the democratic process (beyond 'sidelining' them)?

He just said that Maliki was carrying on like governments the world over, stacking his judiciary, puvlic service, army and so forth with cronies, fellow travellers and running dogs. It's just more obvious in a non-secular state largely governed by religious ideas and prejudices.

Not a word about the US, unless we are to infer that Maliki is their lap dog and does their bidding.

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged