Australian Politics Forum - Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent Reply #45 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 11:45am under the auspices of "de-baathification". Feel free to read up on it, there's plenty written about it. You could even say its common knowledge. And how do you suppose there is any difference between 'sidelining' and 'excluding' in this respect? There isn't.
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freediver

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #46 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 1:59pm

I never said there was a difference - hence my suggestion that you were waving a thesaurus round in lieu of a rational argument.

The de-baathification is common knowledge. Using it to exclude Sunnis in general from the democratic process is not. Hence my suggestion that this is a bit like complaining that the west did not allow the Nazi party to manage West Germany's transition back to democracy after WWII, and then insisting that it equates to systematic discrimination against white Christians.

That is why you can only make vague allusions in your desperation to paint this as anything but one side defending democracy and the other attacking it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #47 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 2:12pm

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 1:59pm:

The de-baathification is common knowledge. Using it to exclude Sunnis in general from the democratic process is not.

Yes it is. Please read up on it.

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 1:59pm:

That is why you can only make vague allusions in your desperation to paint this as anything but one side defending democracy and the other attacking it.

No side is defending democracy FD. Pretty much all sides are trying to destroy it. I would have thought tha the "muslims hate democracy" meme you've been banging on all these years would have kicked in here. Or is your need to blindly defend anything the US touches really that pathologcal?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #48 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 2:20pm

Quote:

Yes it is. Please read up on it.

What I have read so far is mindless drivel. I am not going to go looking for more. It does not even make sense. There is no need to make any effort at all to exclude a minority group from democratic processes. The nature of democracy itself achieves the same thing, and the arguments you have copied and pasted so far merely indicate that the author cannot tell the difference. I don't think you can either. I doubt you would be satisfied with anything short of the re-election of the baath party to power.

Bottom line is, you made the claim, but you cannot defend it. You can foresee Muslims doing exactly what I accuse them of - destroying democracy - and you are desperate to paint it as anything but, by pretending both sides were out to destroy democracy.

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Laugh till you cry

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #49 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 2:35pm

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 2:20pm:

Quote:

Yes it is. Please read up on it.

What I have read so far is mindless drivel. I am not going to go looking for more. It does not even make sense. There is no need to make any effort at all to exclude a minority group from democratic processes. The nature of democracy itself achieves the same thing, and the arguments you have copied and pasted so far merely indicate that the author cannot tell the difference. I don't think you can either. I doubt you would be satisfied with anything short of the re-election of the baath party to power.

Bottom line is, you made the claim, but you cannot defend it. You can foresee Muslims doing exactly what I accuse them of - destroying democracy - and you are desperate to paint it as anything but, by pretending both sides were out to destroy democracy.

Now you have appraised us of your education and information sources perhaps you can liberate your mind.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Sunnis have faced extreme prejudice in Iraq perpetrated by USA and perpetuated by the Shia.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #50 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 3:01pm

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 2:20pm:

the arguments you have copied and pasted so far merely indicate that the author cannot tell the difference.

I'm not sure what you were reading, but the article I quoted wasn't even talking about sunnis being excluded Tongue

But the processes it describes does demonstrate that effect. As does the second article I linked - describing Maliki's (undemocratic) hijacking of independent institutions vital for upholding democracy. Being a minority, these sorts of moves affect the sunnis the most.

Here's another article you can misinterpret - about the barring of 9 political parties and hundreds of sunni candidates during the 2010 election - ensuring that the sunnis performed poorly in that election:

http://carnegieendowment.org/2010/01/26/de-baathification-as-political-tool-comm...

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 2:20pm:

You can foresee Muslims doing exactly what I accuse them of - destroying democracy - and you are desperate to paint it as anything but, by pretending both sides were out to destroy democracy.

Both sides clearly don't want a fair democracy - Maliki continues to take an authoritarian approach to subvert the democratic institutions and exclude sunnis and other non-aligned shiites, the sunnis at this stage seem warily content to let ISIS destroy the Baghdad regime. I've presented my argument - whats yours FD? Who are the people "on the side of democracy"? The Kurds - for themselves, thats about it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #51 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 7:49pm

Quote:

There is absolutely no doubt that the Sunnis have faced extreme prejudice in Iraq perpetrated by USA and perpetuated by the Shia.

I doubt it. The blind insistence from you and Gandalf is hardly convincing.

Quote:

I'm not sure what you were reading, but the article I quoted wasn't even talking about sunnis being excluded Tongue But the processes it describes does demonstrate that effect.

Is this like when you accuse me of saying things I have not actually said?

Quote:

Being a minority, these sorts of moves affect the sunnis the most.

So the Sunnis were not directly excluded by the US or Maliki - you just assume they will be affected most?

Quote:

Here's another article you can misinterpret - about the barring of 9 political parties and hundreds of sunni candidates during the 2010 election - ensuring that the sunnis performed poorly in that election:

Is this any different to us not allowing the Nazi party to manage West Germany's transition back to democracy after WWII or run for office? Were any of these people not members of the Baath party?

Quote:

Both sides clearly don't want a fair democracy - Maliki continues to take an authoritarian approach to subvert the democratic institutions and exclude sunnis and other non-aligned shiites, the sunnis at this stage seem warily content to let ISIS destroy the Baghdad regime

Of course. I can see how you would miss the subtle differences. One side is appointing judges with bias. The other is slaughtering their way to Bagdad to impose a Shariah state. Who's to say which one opposes democracy?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #52 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 8:45pm

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 7:49pm:

Of course. I can see how you would miss the subtle differences. One side is appointing judges with bias. The other is slaughtering their way to Bagdad to impose a Shariah state.

Umm nice strawman... did I ever say there was no difference between the two? Answer = no.

And its not "the sunnis" who are slaughtering their way to Baghdad as you so disingenuously imply - it is ISIS - a very small group made up mostly of non-Iraqis.

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 7:49pm:

Who's to say which one opposes democracy?

All sides oppose democracy at this point - Maliki is establishing himself an authoritarian regime, while the sunnis seem content on letting ISIS try and destroy the regime in Baghdad. The exception is the Kurds - they are fighting for their democracy in what looks more and more likely to be their new state

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mattywisk

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #53 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 8:52pm

ISIS wants to establish a caliphate

Their goal since being founded in 2004 has been remarkably consistent: found a hardline Sunni Islamic state. As General Ray Odierno puts it: "They want complete failure of the government in Iraq. They want to establish a caliphate in Iraq." Even after ISIS split with al-Qaeda in February 2014 (in large part because ISIS was too brutal even for al-Qaeda), ISIS' goal remained the same.

The conflict betweeen Iraqi Sunnis and Shias sustains ISIS

Perhaps the single most important factor in ISIS' recent resurgence is the conflict between Iraqi Shias and Iraqi Sunnis. ISIS fighters themselves are Sunnis, and the tension between the two groups is a powerful recruiting tool for ISIS.

The difference between the two largest Muslim groups originated with a controversy over who got to take power after the Prophet Muhammed's death, which you can read all about here. But Iraq's sectarian problems aren't about relitigating 7th century disputes; they're about modern political power and grievances.

http://www.vox.com/cards/things-about-isis-you-need-to-know/sunni-shia-conflict-...

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More BS from the pretend Sunni Imam

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Laugh till you cry

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #54 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:42pm

Mattywisk wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

ISIS wants to establish a caliphate

Their goal since being founded in 2004 has been remarkably consistent: found a hardline Sunni Islamic state. As General Ray Odierno puts it: "They want complete failure of the government in Iraq. They want to establish a caliphate in Iraq." Even after ISIS split with al-Qaeda in February 2014 (in large part because ISIS was too brutal even for al-Qaeda), ISIS' goal remained the same.

The conflict betweeen Iraqi Sunnis and Shias sustains ISIS

Perhaps the single most important factor in ISIS' recent resurgence is the conflict between Iraqi Shias and Iraqi Sunnis. ISIS fighters themselves are Sunnis, and the tension between the two groups is a powerful recruiting tool for ISIS.

The difference between the two largest Muslim groups originated with a controversy over who got to take power after the Prophet Muhammed's death, which you can read all about here. But Iraq's sectarian problems aren't about relitigating 7th century disputes; they're about modern political power and grievances.

http://www.vox.com/cards/things-about-isis-you-need-to-know/sunni-shia-conflict-...

----------------

More BS from the pretend Sunni Imam

Wasn't General Ray Odierno one of the wretches who failed in Iraq causing the current chaos?

You are a disciple of failures.

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Please don't thank me. Effusive fawning and obeisance of disciples, mendicants, and foot-kissers embarrass me.

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Mattywisk

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #55 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:45pm

Laugh till you cry wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:42pm:

Mattywisk wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

ISIS wants to establish a caliphate

Their goal since being founded in 2004 has been remarkably consistent: found a hardline Sunni Islamic state. As General Ray Odierno puts it: "They want complete failure of the government in Iraq. They want to establish a caliphate in Iraq." Even after ISIS split with al-Qaeda in February 2014 (in large part because ISIS was too brutal even for al-Qaeda), ISIS' goal remained the same.

The conflict betweeen Iraqi Sunnis and Shias sustains ISIS

Perhaps the single most important factor in ISIS' recent resurgence is the conflict between Iraqi Shias and Iraqi Sunnis. ISIS fighters themselves are Sunnis, and the tension between the two groups is a powerful recruiting tool for ISIS.

The difference between the two largest Muslim groups originated with a controversy over who got to take power after the Prophet Muhammed's death, which you can read all about here. But Iraq's sectarian problems aren't about relitigating 7th century disputes; they're about modern political power and grievances.

http://www.vox.com/cards/things-about-isis-you-need-to-know/sunni-shia-conflict-...

----------------

More BS from the pretend Sunni Imam

Wasn't General Ray Odierno one of the wretches who failed in Iraq causing the current chaos?

You are a disciple of failures.

You are a disciple of intellectual incapacity.

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Laugh till you cry

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #56 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:50pm

Mattywisk wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:45pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:42pm:

Mattywisk wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

ISIS wants to establish a caliphate

Their goal since being founded in 2004 has been remarkably consistent: found a hardline Sunni Islamic state. As General Ray Odierno puts it: "They want complete failure of the government in Iraq. They want to establish a caliphate in Iraq." Even after ISIS split with al-Qaeda in February 2014 (in large part because ISIS was too brutal even for al-Qaeda), ISIS' goal remained the same.

The conflict betweeen Iraqi Sunnis and Shias sustains ISIS

Perhaps the single most important factor in ISIS' recent resurgence is the conflict between Iraqi Shias and Iraqi Sunnis. ISIS fighters themselves are Sunnis, and the tension between the two groups is a powerful recruiting tool for ISIS.

The difference between the two largest Muslim groups originated with a controversy over who got to take power after the Prophet Muhammed's death, which you can read all about here. But Iraq's sectarian problems aren't about relitigating 7th century disputes; they're about modern political power and grievances.

http://www.vox.com/cards/things-about-isis-you-need-to-know/sunni-shia-conflict-...

----------------

More BS from the pretend Sunni Imam

Wasn't General Ray Odierno one of the wretches who failed in Iraq causing the current chaos?

You are a disciple of failures.

You are a disciple of intellectual incapacity.

Sorry old son. I don't accept your appointment as your disciple.

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Please don't thank me. Effusive fawning and obeisance of disciples, mendicants, and foot-kissers embarrass me.

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Mattywisk

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #57 - Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:54pm

Laugh till you cry wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:50pm:

Mattywisk wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:45pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:42pm:

Mattywisk wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

ISIS wants to establish a caliphate

Their goal since being founded in 2004 has been remarkably consistent: found a hardline Sunni Islamic state. As General Ray Odierno puts it: "They want complete failure of the government in Iraq. They want to establish a caliphate in Iraq." Even after ISIS split with al-Qaeda in February 2014 (in large part because ISIS was too brutal even for al-Qaeda), ISIS' goal remained the same.

The conflict betweeen Iraqi Sunnis and Shias sustains ISIS

Perhaps the single most important factor in ISIS' recent resurgence is the conflict between Iraqi Shias and Iraqi Sunnis. ISIS fighters themselves are Sunnis, and the tension between the two groups is a powerful recruiting tool for ISIS.

The difference between the two largest Muslim groups originated with a controversy over who got to take power after the Prophet Muhammed's death, which you can read all about here. But Iraq's sectarian problems aren't about relitigating 7th century disputes; they're about modern political power and grievances.

http://www.vox.com/cards/things-about-isis-you-need-to-know/sunni-shia-conflict-...

----------------

More BS from the pretend Sunni Imam

Wasn't General Ray Odierno one of the wretches who failed in Iraq causing the current chaos?

You are a disciple of failures.

You are a disciple of intellectual incapacity.

Sorry old son. I don't accept your appointment as your disciple.

No need for that its clear you are already a disciple of intellectual incapacity..

As you were.

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freediver

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #58 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:54am

Quote:

And its not "the sunnis" who are slaughtering their way to Baghdad as you so disingenuously imply - it is ISIS - a very small group made up mostly of non-Iraqis.

Likewise it was not "the sunnis" that the US excluded from the democratic process as you explicitly stated, but the Baathists - Iraq's equivalent of the Nazi party in West Germany after WWII.

I'm pretty sure there are a few Iraqis in ISIS.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #59 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 10:10am

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:54am:

Likewise it was not "the sunnis" that the US excluded

Try as you may, this is not the topic - it is the exclusion by the Maliki regime - a point that you consistently fail to address - because you can't. The best you can come up with is clever little quips about thesauruses.

In 2014, no side in Iraq is "on the side of democracy" - do you agree with that?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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