Australian Politics Forum - Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #60 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 10:57am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 12:47am:

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 7:19pm:

Where you clarified that the US excluded sunnis by sidelining them? Nothing in that post demonstrates systematic structural discrimination against sunnis. It is just a whinge about them "losing" elections.

The part about Maliki setting up a shadow state to facilitate the dominance of shiites in state institutions, and consolidating power through a "divide and rule" model along sectarian lines - thus effectively excluding sunnis (a minority) from the democratic process. A relevant article to this topic was quoted in post#19 for your convenience. I'm going to take a wild stab and say you haven't read this. Strongly recommend that you do.

Iraq is a basket case... An artificial state that will (probably sooner rather than later) split along sectarian lines... And if so, let it be so...

Western support should be with the Kurds, who have, despite their suffering and their being betrayed, proved the only people worthy of western support and respect by their commitment to building a peaceful political and social state.

Pressure should be put on Turkey to support a Kurdish independent state (it would test Turkey's credentials for politically returning to Europe)... Supporting a people who have come so far to prove their worth as the kind of modern nation builders that is so lacking in the region.

Australia should support the proposition of a Kurdish referendum on independence.

The rest of Iraq? Let the Shi'ites and the Sunnis carve it up between themselves as they see fit... The sooner, the better.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent Reply #61 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 11:37am NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 10:57am: Iraq is a basket case... An artificial state that will (probably sooner rather than later) split along sectarian lines... And if so, let it be so... Couldn't agree more
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GA

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #62 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 12:05pm

Laugh till you cry wrote on Jul 5^th, 2014 at 5:56pm:

Iraq is totally screwed after the misadventures of George W Bush and a stooge like John Howard. Both sought to enrich themselves from death and misery of others. Now there is a chaos in the Middle East far more dangerous than any past situation.

We can't really blame George, he was kind of invited to attack some Muslims somewhere, let's face it. And had his fathers unfilled legacy of abandoning some of the supporters of US in Iraq following the first war there, to take care of. And Aussie Johnny too can't be held accountable, after-all helping others invade Muslim, or for that matter nations in general, is in his blood, he is an 'Aussie' after-all. And consequently part of a team that has partaken in probably more military interventions than any other nation has, at least in modern times. No, the blame lies with the British war criminal Tony Blair, who just wanted to be 'cool', by being seen backing the Americans.

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freediver

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #63 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 1:35pm

Quote:

Try as you may, this is not the topic - it is the exclusion by the Maliki regime - a point that you consistently fail to address - because you can't.

I have asked you to explain how the Maliki regime excluded Sunnis. You are yet to explain. I can hardly address the argument if it has not even been made. Nor am I going to go looking elsewhere for you argument so that I can address it. If you don't know what it is, I am not going to bother explaining why you are wrong. The closest you have come is to argue that they (the Sunnis) are more sensitive to what he has done because they are a minority. That is hardly the same thing as being excluded from the democratic process.

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The best you can come up with is clever little quips about thesauruses.

That's because the best you have done is to say the same thing with slightly different words.

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In 2014, no side in Iraq is "on the side of democracy" - do you agree with that?

So far you have said that the Kurds are on the side of democracy, that the Sunnis aren't and that the Maliki regime isn't either. Despite already conceding one group that is supportive of democracy, you have still left out the majority of the population. So no, I don't agree. I know you like to think that because they are all despicable Muslims none of them support democracy or are currently fighting for it, but we must remember that they are also humans, so it is not unreasonable to expect that there are a few non-Muslims among them. Maybe even a few gay pretend-Muslims.

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An artificial state

All states are artificial.

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The rest of Iraq? Let the Shi'ites and the Sunnis carve it up between themselves as they see fit... The sooner, the better.

I doubt that would solve their problems either, but at least there would be a conventional front between them.

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Laugh till you cry Gold Member Offline Posts: 16619 In your happy place Gender:	Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent Reply #64 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 2:43pm Is it any wonder that Freediver's best friend is a dead fish. Freediver is a rampant muslim hate sniper who saw an opportunity to come out from hiding and indulge in muslim hate propaganda from the front instead of the rear. I wonder if Denizens Mahdi and Hermoine are actually Freediver in disguise.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49554 At my desk.	Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent Reply #65 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 3:52pm Surely Islam couldn't have more than one critic?
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Laugh till you cry Gold Member Offline Posts: 16619 In your happy place Gender:	Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent Reply #66 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:08pm freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 3:52pm: Surely Islam couldn't have more than one critic? Critic is one thing. Islam hate propagandist is another. You have been sniping from the bushes for a long time and finally exposed yourself. The dead fish in your arms is your only friend.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49554 At my desk.	Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent Reply #67 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:11pm Quote: You have been sniping from the bushes for a long time For how long?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #68 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:25pm

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 1:35pm:

I have asked you to explain how the Maliki regime excluded Sunnis. You are yet to explain.

The process of exclusion has been explained. I'm sorry if you can't grasp it, but given that you started the discussion thinking the sunnis are the majority in Iraq, and dismissed an article by criticising an argument that wasn't even in it - then its probably not surprising.

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 1:35pm:

So far you have said that the Kurds are on the side of democracy, that the Sunnis aren't and that the Maliki regime isn't either. Despite already conceding one group that is supportive of democracy, you have still left out the majority of the population. So no, I don't agree.

The kurds are not part of Iraq - not in any meaningful sense any more. Thats why I didn't include them.

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 1:35pm:

I know you like to think that because they are all despicable Muslims none of them support democracy or are currently fighting for it, but we must remember that they are also humans, so it is not unreasonable to expect that there are a few non-Muslims among them. Maybe even a few gay pretend-Muslims.

Just a few? What is it FD - a majority or not?

I have no bones at all with the argument that most muslims in Iraq support democracy, but I was talking about the political leaders who are trying to establish secular autocracies and caliphates and so forth. But of course we could always just pull out the PEW survey again to point out "what muslims think" - in case we get carried away with the whole "muslims support democracy" thing right FD? I mean, its not as if you've been hammering the meme for about 7 years that whenever muslims are a majority anywhere (but especially near islam's "heartland"), they suddenly become all anti-freedom and anti-democracy.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49554 At my desk.	Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent Reply #69 - Jul 14^th, 2014 at 5:49pm According to today's paper, by convention the role of head of parliament is awarded to the Sunnis. Is this why you are so reluctant to explain how the Sunnis are actually excluded?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #70 - Jul 14^th, 2014 at 6:17pm

Hooray! all hail the awesome power of the parliamentary speaker.

Quote:

He managed to greatly subjugate the federal court and forge an alliance with its chief that helped him encircle his opponents and weaken their ability to check his power through the parliament.

http://carnegieendowment.org/2014/04/17/iraq-s-sectarian-crisis-legacy-of-exclus...

So you destroy parliaments ability to democratically scrutinise and check the power of the executive - but proudly declare democracy's still all good - because the speaker of that now impotent parliament is a member of the opposition.

No wonder you still don't get how sunnis are being excluded from the democracy. Cheesy

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Seed of democracy planted in fertile crescent
Reply #71 - Jul 19^th, 2014 at 4:24pm

Quote:

So you destroy parliaments ability to democratically scrutinise and check the power of the executive

You left out the bit about drawing circles around them. Your cut and pasted criticisms are full of flowery speech and analogies, but very short on detail. Why is that? Is it up to me to disprove the claim he encircled his political opponents? What next? You will accuse him of playing politics with democracy?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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