Australian Politics Forum - Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch

greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #165 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:50pm

Gnads wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:38pm:

Gnads wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:29pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

Gnads wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 11:13am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

Quote:

The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

Thanks for proving my point, ian.

" ... someone who says ... "

Not, "someone who is a refugee".

If they say they are a refugee, seeking asylum, they are indeed a genuine asylum seeker (your definition clearly proves that point).

However, they are not a genuine refugee until their claim has been (positively) evaluated.

This is not "pedantic semantics":, and it's important to understand the difference if one wants to engage in debate on the subject (I'm looking at you, Gnads).

How's that going for you .... have they got new technology for your Labrador & White cane?

Do you often mock people with disabilities?

No ... but you seem blind to any other point of view but your own.

I'm not putting forward a "point of view", I'm pointing out simple facts.

Asylum seekers and refugees are not the same thing.

All refugees were once asylum seekers, but not all asylum seekers turn out to be refugees.

There's no such thing as a "non genuine asylum seeker".

Asylum seekers say they are refugees, but we don't know for sure if they are. What we do know for sure, is that if they say they are refugees seeking asylum, they are genuine asylum seekers.

However, that doesn't mean they are genuine refugees.

All facts. Not my personal "point of view", but facts.

What a lot of mumbo jumbo Roll Eyes

Actually, it's all very, very basic stuff (and all 100% accurate).

However, I can understand why it might be giving you some grief.

The simplest thing for you to do, is to find an adult and ask them to put forward some sort of evidence that proves me wrong. i.e. substantiate your claim of, what was it again? ... oh yes, "mumbo jumbo".

I'll be here waiting, so I look forward to your response.

Cheers.

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Gnads

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #166 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:22pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:50pm:

Gnads wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:38pm:

Gnads wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:29pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

Gnads wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 11:13am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

Quote:

The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

Thanks for proving my point, ian.

" ... someone who says ... "

Not, "someone who is a refugee".

If they say they are a refugee, seeking asylum, they are indeed a genuine asylum seeker (your definition clearly proves that point).

However, they are not a genuine refugee until their claim has been (positively) evaluated.

This is not "pedantic semantics":, and it's important to understand the difference if one wants to engage in debate on the subject (I'm looking at you, Gnads).

How's that going for you .... have they got new technology for your Labrador & White cane?

Do you often mock people with disabilities?

No ... but you seem blind to any other point of view but your own.

I'm not putting forward a "point of view", I'm pointing out simple facts.

Asylum seekers and refugees are not the same thing.

All refugees were once asylum seekers, but not all asylum seekers turn out to be refugees.

There's no such thing as a "non genuine asylum seeker".

Asylum seekers say they are refugees, but we don't know for sure if they are. What we do know for sure, is that if they say they are refugees seeking asylum, they are genuine asylum seekers.

However, that doesn't mean they are genuine refugees.

All facts. Not my personal "point of view", but facts.

What a lot of mumbo jumbo Roll Eyes

Actually, it's all very, very basic stuff (and all 100% accurate).

However, I can understand why it might be giving you some grief.

The simplest thing for you to do, is to find an adult and ask them to put forward some sort of evidence that proves me wrong. i.e. substantiate your claim of, what was it again? ... oh yes, "mumbo jumbo".

I'll be here waiting, so I look forward to your response.

Cheers.

Of course it is how remiss of me...

I bet you don't have haemorrhoids

.. you're a perfect arze.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #167 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:24pm

Gnads wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:22pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:50pm:

Gnads wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:38pm:

Gnads wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:29pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

Gnads wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 11:13am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

Quote:

The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

Thanks for proving my point, ian.

" ... someone who says ... "

Not, "someone who is a refugee".

If they say they are a refugee, seeking asylum, they are indeed a genuine asylum seeker (your definition clearly proves that point).

However, they are not a genuine refugee until their claim has been (positively) evaluated.

This is not "pedantic semantics":, and it's important to understand the difference if one wants to engage in debate on the subject (I'm looking at you, Gnads).

How's that going for you .... have they got new technology for your Labrador & White cane?

Do you often mock people with disabilities?

No ... but you seem blind to any other point of view but your own.

I'm not putting forward a "point of view", I'm pointing out simple facts.

Asylum seekers and refugees are not the same thing.

All refugees were once asylum seekers, but not all asylum seekers turn out to be refugees.

There's no such thing as a "non genuine asylum seeker".

Asylum seekers say they are refugees, but we don't know for sure if they are. What we do know for sure, is that if they say they are refugees seeking asylum, they are genuine asylum seekers.

However, that doesn't mean they are genuine refugees.

All facts. Not my personal "point of view", but facts.

What a lot of mumbo jumbo Roll Eyes

Actually, it's all very, very basic stuff (and all 100% accurate).

However, I can understand why it might be giving you some grief.

The simplest thing for you to do, is to find an adult and ask them to put forward some sort of evidence that proves me wrong. i.e. substantiate your claim of, what was it again? ... oh yes, "mumbo jumbo".

I'll be here waiting, so I look forward to your response.

Cheers.

Of course it is how remiss of me...

That's OK, we you all learn from our your mistakes.

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #168 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:26pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:44pm:

[
The definition you posted earlier on clarified this point beautifully (thankyou, by the way, for putting the last nail in your own coffin on this one). If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are asylum seekers.

Only if they are deemed to be genuine refugees, one doesnt preclude the other, if they are found not to be genuine refugees then they are also by default non genuine asylum seekers.

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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 30182 Gender:	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #169 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:26pm
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #170 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:32pm

ian wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:26pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:44pm:

[
The definition you posted earlier on clarified this point beautifully (thankyou, by the way, for putting the last nail in your own coffin on this one). If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are asylum seekers.

Only if they are deemed to be genuine refugees, one doesnt preclude the other, if they are found not to be genuine refugees then they are also by default non genuine asylum seekers.

Incorrect.

If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are genuine asylum seekers.

If they actually are fleeing persecution, they are genuine refugees.

If they are not fleeing persecution (but say they are), they are genuine asylum seekers who lied.

Thanks for posting that definition that removed all doubt on this subject.

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #171 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:38pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:32pm:

ian wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:26pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:44pm:

[
The definition you posted earlier on clarified this point beautifully (thankyou, by the way, for putting the last nail in your own coffin on this one). If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are asylum seekers.

Only if they are deemed to be genuine refugees, one doesnt preclude the other, if they are found not to be genuine refugees then they are also by default non genuine asylum seekers.

Incorrect.

If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are genuine asylum seekers.

heres where you are getting it wrong. The UNHCR definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone who claims to be fleeing persecution. You are still wrong, I suggest you take it up with the UN.

[/quote]

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #172 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:44pm

ian wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:38pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:32pm:

ian wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:26pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:44pm:

[
The definition you posted earlier on clarified this point beautifully (thankyou, by the way, for putting the last nail in your own coffin on this one). If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are asylum seekers.

Only if they are deemed to be genuine refugees, one doesnt preclude the other, if they are found not to be genuine refugees then they are also by default non genuine asylum seekers.

Incorrect.

If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are genuine asylum seekers.

heres where you are getting it wrong. The UNHCR definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone who claims to be fleeing persecution. You are still wrong, I suggest you take it up with the UN.

I have to admit it, I've never seen anyone do it as good as you.

ian: "Wrong, heres the UNHCR definiton of asylum seeker.

Quote:
The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated."

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404881644/148#148

Thanks for your help, ian.

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Soren

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #173 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 7:31pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 9:07am:

Soren wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:23pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 6:59pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 12:03pm:

.

For something to be true it is not enough to be uttered. It is also important to know who is saying it and in what circumstances. Illegal entrants on boats can utter anything, including 'I want asylum', but it doesn't make them genuine asylum seekers.

Incorrect.

It does make them asylum seekers.

Not GENUINE asylum seekers.

Focus, Five Doors.

Incorrect.

It makes them GENUINE asylum seekers.

There's no such thing as a "non genuine asylum seeker".

If somebody says they are seeking asylum, they are a GENUINE asylum seeker.

However, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are a GENUINE refugee.

Perhaps you should learn the difference.

You are talking utter, utter nonsense.

If you are not fleeing persecution as recognised in the Convention, you are not a genuine asylum seeker, you are lying and you are a fake asylum seeker.

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Soren

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #174 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 7:38pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:56pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:32pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:29pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:27pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:21pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:

These guys are interested in settlement - not covered by the Convention - rather than safety which is available to them in countries next door.

And how, exactly, do you know that?

Because they riot when you offer them only temporary protection=asylum.

All of them?

No.

Of course not.

You made a generalisation, based on your irrational bigotry and fear of anyone different to you.

It's par for the course.

No matter how you manipulate my posts, the result in the real world is that ALL of them are taken offshore, ALL of them are denied access to Australia. This is because tens of thousands of them have been gaming the system under Labor and now the jig is up.
It is NO to all undocumented aliens. Exploiting the system is over.
Your hair splitting and cleverdickerry is utterly useless. You and your ideas and your pet 'asylum seekers' are all fooked because they, like you, have been completely dishonest for years.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #175 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 7:41pm

Soren wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 7:31pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 9:07am:

Soren wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:23pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 6:59pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 12:03pm:

.

For something to be true it is not enough to be uttered. It is also important to know who is saying it and in what circumstances. Illegal entrants on boats can utter anything, including 'I want asylum', but it doesn't make them genuine asylum seekers.

Incorrect.

It does make them asylum seekers.

Not GENUINE asylum seekers.

Focus, Five Doors.

Incorrect.

It makes them GENUINE asylum seekers.

There's no such thing as a "non genuine asylum seeker".

If somebody says they are seeking asylum, they are a GENUINE asylum seeker.

However, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are a GENUINE refugee.

Perhaps you should learn the difference.

You are talking utter, utter nonsense.

If you are not fleeing persecution as recognised in the Convention, you are not a genuine asylum seeker, you are lying and you are a fake asylum seeker.

Incorrect.

If you are not fleeing persecution, as recognised in the Convention, you are lying and you are not a genuine refugee.

However, not matter what the outcome, if you say you are fleeing persecution, you most certainly are a genuine asylum seeker.

'asylum seeker' and 'refugee': not the same thing, old boy. Not that I'd expect you to understand such basic concepts.

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #176 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 8:03pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

ian wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:38pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:32pm:

ian wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:26pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:44pm:

[
The definition you posted earlier on clarified this point beautifully (thankyou, by the way, for putting the last nail in your own coffin on this one). If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are asylum seekers.

Only if they are deemed to be genuine refugees, one doesnt preclude the other, if they are found not to be genuine refugees then they are also by default non genuine asylum seekers.

Incorrect.

If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are genuine asylum seekers.

heres where you are getting it wrong. The UNHCR definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone who claims to be fleeing persecution. You are still wrong, I suggest you take it up with the UN.

I have to admit it, I've never seen anyone do it as good as you.

http://intelligentdiscontent.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/backpedaling34.jpg

ian: "Wrong, heres the UNHCR definiton of asylum seeker.

Quote:
The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated."

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404881644/148#148

Thanks for your help, ian.

correct, they claim to be a refugee but they must be fleeing persecution to be considered an asylum seeker. Which part of this dont you understand>\?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #177 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 8:08pm

ian wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 8:03pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

ian wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:38pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:32pm:

ian wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 6:26pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 5:44pm:

[
The definition you posted earlier on clarified this point beautifully (thankyou, by the way, for putting the last nail in your own coffin on this one). If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are asylum seekers.

Only if they are deemed to be genuine refugees, one doesnt preclude the other, if they are found not to be genuine refugees then they are also by default non genuine asylum seekers.

Incorrect.

If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are genuine asylum seekers.

heres where you are getting it wrong. The UNHCR definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone who claims to be fleeing persecution. You are still wrong, I suggest you take it up with the UN.

I have to admit it, I've never seen anyone do it as good as you.

http://intelligentdiscontent.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/backpedaling34.jpg

ian: "Wrong, heres the UNHCR definiton of asylum seeker.

Quote:
The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated."

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404881644/148#148

Thanks for your help, ian.

correct, they claim to be a refugee but they must be fleeing persecution to be considered an asylum seeker.

Incorrect.

They only need to say they are fleeing persecution in order to be a genuine asylum seeker (there's actually no such thing as a "non genuine asylum seeker").

Here's a post from another forum member. I think his name is ian:

" ... heres the UNHCR definiton of asylum seeker.

"Quote:

"The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated."

There you go then.

Thanks, ian.

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Soren

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #178 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 8:26pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 7:41pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 7:31pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 9:07am:

Soren wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 10:23pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 6:59pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 12^th, 2014 at 12:03pm:

.

For something to be true it is not enough to be uttered. It is also important to know who is saying it and in what circumstances. Illegal entrants on boats can utter anything, including 'I want asylum', but it doesn't make them genuine asylum seekers.

Incorrect.

It does make them asylum seekers.

Not GENUINE asylum seekers.

Focus, Five Doors.

Incorrect.

It makes them GENUINE asylum seekers.

There's no such thing as a "non genuine asylum seeker".

If somebody says they are seeking asylum, they are a GENUINE asylum seeker.

However, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are a GENUINE refugee.

Perhaps you should learn the difference.

You are talking utter, utter nonsense.

If you are not fleeing persecution as recognised in the Convention, you are not a genuine asylum seeker, you are lying and you are a fake asylum seeker.

Incorrect.

If you are not fleeing persecution, as recognised in the Convention, you are lying and you are not a genuine refugee.

However, not matter what the outcome, if you say you are fleeing persecution, you most certainly are a genuine asylum seeker.

'asylum seeker' and 'refugee': not the same thing, old boy. Not that I'd expect you to understand such basic concepts.

An asylum seeker is a person who has fled their own country and applied for protection as a refugee.

Most if not all the illegal boat people have not fled their countries. They have bought a commercial airline ticket and flew out on a passport as tourists to sunny Malaysia and Indonesia. So no 'fleeing' there.

A refugee is someone who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country."

In the absence of positive ID (ditched in the Timor Sea after being used to gain lawful entry into Malaysia and Indonesia) and with cockamamie stories of generic persecution, they are now all treated as frauds because a very large number of the previous 50 thousand were frauds.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #179 - Jul 13^th, 2014 at 8:33pm

Soren wrote on Jul 13^th, 2014 at 8:26pm:

Most if not all the illegal boat people have not fled their countries. They have bought a commercial airline ticket and flew out on a passport as tourists to sunny Malaysia and Indonesia. So no 'fleeing' there.

If they say they are fleeing persecution, they are a genuine asylum seeker. This is an indisputable fact.

However, that does not mean they are a genuine refugee.

You're having a little difficulty understanding the difference between an asylum seeker and a refugee. That's OK, you're not alone. There are many other ignorant forum members who share your lack of knowledge.

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