Australian Politics Forum - Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch

Alinta

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #210 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 11:23am

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 10:29am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:59am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

Soren got his little ass owned Grin

I think you had your arse handed to you. Especially when you made some concessions that asylum seekers aren't necessarily refugees. Aren't your proving us right that someone traveling half way around the world isn't genuinely a refugee? They are economic migrants that don't want to wait.

You seem to be confusing 'refugees' with 'asylum seekers'.

If someone says they are seeking asylum, they are a genuine asylum seeker. No 'ifs', no 'buts'.

True, asylum is what they are seeking and "I am seeking asylum" is a genuine request. I think some are probably associating and thinking "genuine"...or not..... with the validity of their claims stated when they actually make written application for asylum.

However, that does not necessarily mean that they are a genuine refugee.

True, this is the stage at which the validity of the their written claims are assessed...........genuine refugee......or not.

Nobody has ever suggested that all asylum seekers are genuine refugees. We know for a fact that some are not.

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Stratos

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #211 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 11:28am

                     -Granted refugee status, now a refugee
                     /
                  /
Asylum Seeker-
                  \
                     \
                        -Not Granted refugee status, now not a refugee

Here endeth the strenuous lesson, go home and nurse your heads from the rocket surgery seminar.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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aquascoot Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 35329 Gender:	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #212 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 11:32am Coached.
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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #213 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:03pm

They still dont get it, the UN states that an asylum seeker must be fleeing persecution, if they arent fleeing persecution they are a non genuine asylum seeker. Funny how greggary and the other rent a crowd selectively quote the UN but fail to understand this basic fact. Under gregarrys rules anyone can be a genuine asylum seeker, this is obvious abject nonsense.

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #214 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:07pm greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 8:28pm: Hey Soren, you've got ian on your side now (he thinks people smuggling is legal). ) Thats your claim, not mine. I feel sorry for people who feel the need to lie to attempt to win a point on an internet forum.
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Alinta

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #215 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:22pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:03pm:

They still dont get it, the UN states that an asylum seeker must be fleeing persecution, if they arent fleeing persecution they are a non genuine asylum seeker. Funny how greggary and the other rent a crowd selectively quote the UN but fail to understand this basic fact. Under gregarrys rules anyone can be a genuine asylum seeker, this is obvious abject nonsense.

I'm no-one's rent a crowd Ian.........in itself, "I seek asylum" is a genuine request. The VALIDITY of the reasons however may or may not be genuine.

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #216 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm

Alinta wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:22pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:03pm:

They still dont get it, the UN states that an asylum seeker must be fleeing persecution, if they arent fleeing persecution they are a non genuine asylum seeker. Funny how greggary and the other rent a crowd selectively quote the UN but fail to understand this basic fact. Under gregarrys rules anyone can be a genuine asylum seeker, this is obvious abject nonsense.

I'm no-one's rent a crowd Ian.........in itself, "I seek asylum" is a genuine request. The VALIDITY of the reasons however may or may not be genuine.

Like greggary you are confused as the the meaning of the term asylum seeker and translate the term literally. As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

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Stratos

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #217 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:46pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

Like greggary you are confused as the the meaning of the term asylum seeker and translate the term literally. As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

Happily, the UNHCR themselves made a page specifically regarding this Ian

Quote:

The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49c3646c137.html

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #218 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:47pm

This is similar to the lack of understanding that all people who enter australia without a visa do so illegally. There various arguments put forward as to why they dont including the fact there are no actual penalties under law for doing so, this in itself is correct but just because there are no penalties does not mean an act can not still be illegal, again a lack of understanding . Also the prosecution of the crime of people smuggling depends on the proof of the human cargo being transported to australlia illegally, without illegal entry the crime of people smuggling can not be proved, as we have many people in australian jails currently serving lengthy sentences for the very same crime I would suggest this is prima facie evidence that these people are entering illegally. The UN convention also refers to illegal entry asylum seekers.

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #219 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:48pm

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

Like greggary you are confused as the the meaning of the term asylum seeker and translate the term literally. As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

Happily, the UNHCR themselves made a page specifically regarding this Ian

Quote:

The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49c3646c137.html

whats your point? No one is denying there is an evaluation process for refugee status.

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Stratos

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #220 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:53pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

whats your point?

That this statement of yours:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

is wrong.

Because, as I said:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #221 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:55pm

Quote:

Australia provides protection for asylum seekers who:

meet the United Nations definition of a refugee, as defined in the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and its 1967 Protocol (Refugees Convention)
are owed protection under other international human rights treaties and conventions which give rise to complementary protection obligations.

https://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/61protection.htm

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #222 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:56pm

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:53pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

whats your point?

That this statement of yours:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

is wrong.

Because, as I said:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

And iof their claim is not recognised they are non genuine asylum seeker, if the claim of persecution is not genuine then so is the claim for refugee status.

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Stratos

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #223 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:01pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:56pm:

And iof their claim is not recognised they are non genuine asylum seeker, if the claim of persecution is not genuine then so is the claim for refugee status.

If their claim is processed then they aren't any kind of asylum seeker, see my previous UNHCR website quote.

They are either a refugee or not a refugee.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Alinta

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #224 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:09pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

Alinta wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:22pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:03pm:

They still dont get it, the UN states that an asylum seeker must be fleeing persecution, if they arent fleeing persecution they are a non genuine asylum seeker. Funny how greggary and the other rent a crowd selectively quote the UN but fail to understand this basic fact. Under gregarrys rules anyone can be a genuine asylum seeker, this is obvious abject nonsense.

I'm no-one's rent a crowd Ian.........in itself, "I seek asylum" is a genuine request. The VALIDITY of the reasons however may or may not be genuine.

Like greggary you are confused as the the meaning of the term asylum seeker and translate the term literally. As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

I do understand that you are saying the non genuineness derives from seeking asylum while not meeting the definition of "asylum" itself.

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