Australian Politics Forum - Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch

greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #225 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:18pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

Like greggary you are confused as the the meaning of the term asylum seeker and translate the term literally. As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

Happily, the UNHCR themselves made a page specifically regarding this Ian

Quote:

The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49c3646c137.html

whats your point? No one is denying there is an evaluation process for refugee status.

For refugee status, yes.

For asylum seeker status, no.

Your very own quote:

"The terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated."

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #226 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:20pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:56pm:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:53pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

whats your point?

That this statement of yours:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

is wrong.

Because, as I said:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

And iof their claim is not recognised they are non genuine asylum seeker ...

If their claim is not recognised, they are non genuine refugees.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #227 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:42pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:07pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 8:28pm:

Hey Soren, you've got ian on your side now (he thinks people smuggling is legal).

)

Thats your claim, not mine. I feel sorry for people who feel the need to lie to attempt to win a point on an internet forum.

Incorrect.

It's your claim.

I know full well that people smuggling is illegal, and that's why I made this statement, quite some time ago:

"it is illegal to be a people smuggler" http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404775790/405#405 Twice!

Then, along came ian with a direct reply to the post containing that statement:

"You have shown to be wrong on all these things indisputably yet you persist." http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404775790/412#412

Really, ian? I'm wrong? It's not illegal to be a people smuggler? That's a big claim you're making.

(In case you were wondering, it's illegal to be a people smuggler, however, it is not illegal to pay a people smuggler).

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UnSubRocky

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #228 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:02pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 10:29am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:59am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

Soren got his little ass owned Grin

I think you had your arse handed to you. Especially when you made some concessions that asylum seekers aren't necessarily refugees. Aren't your proving us right that someone traveling half way around the world isn't genuinely a refugee? They are economic migrants that don't want to wait.

You seem to be confusing 'refugees' with 'asylum seekers'.

If someone says they are seeking asylum, they are a genuine asylum seeker. No 'ifs', no 'buts'.

However, that does not necessarily mean that they are a genuine refugee.

Nobody has ever suggested that all asylum seekers are genuine refugees. We know for a fact that some are not.

What bloody difference does it make? They entered a new country without informing the country that they were seeking asylum, then we can simply label them as illegal immigrants. No 'ifs', no 'buts'. They can whine all they like about how they aren't rich enough to live a prosperous life in their homeland, and claim that that is enough reason for seeking a new homeland. It just doesn't cover an adequate reason for moving to a new country under the guise of refugee. Because running away from their problems and getting someone else to look after them has been the third world's tactic since decolonisation.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #229 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:07pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:02pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 10:29am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:59am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

Soren got his little ass owned Grin

I think you had your arse handed to you. Especially when you made some concessions that asylum seekers aren't necessarily refugees. Aren't your proving us right that someone traveling half way around the world isn't genuinely a refugee? They are economic migrants that don't want to wait.

You seem to be confusing 'refugees' with 'asylum seekers'.

If someone says they are seeking asylum, they are a genuine asylum seeker. No 'ifs', no 'buts'.

However, that does not necessarily mean that they are a genuine refugee.

Nobody has ever suggested that all asylum seekers are genuine refugees. We know for a fact that some are not.

What bloody difference does it make? They entered a new country without informing the country that they were seeking asylum ...

Um, no.

When they enter the country that's exactly what they do: they announce that they are seeking asylum.

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UnSubRocky Gold Member Offline Crocodile Hunter: Origins Posts: 25029 Rockhampton Gender:	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #230 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:15pm When was the last time an asylum seeker got on a boat or aeroplane and came to Australia AFTER they had informed Australian customs authorities that they are seeking asylum? For their own benefit, they could atleast let authorities know of their intentions.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #231 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:17pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:15pm:

When was the last time an asylum seeker got on a boat or aeroplane and came to Australia AFTER they had informed Australian customs authorities that they are seeking asylum? For their own benefit, they could atleast let authorities know of their intentions.

There is absolutely no requirement, under any law or any UN Convention, for an asylum seeker to announce that they will be seeking asylum before they reach their safe destination.

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UnSubRocky

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #232 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:31pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:17pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:15pm:

When was the last time an asylum seeker got on a boat or aeroplane and came to Australia AFTER they had informed Australian customs authorities that they are seeking asylum? For their own benefit, they could atleast let authorities know of their intentions.

There is absolutely no requirement, under any law or any UN Convention, for an asylum seeker to announce that they will be seeking asylum before they reach their safe destination.

Which means, when caught, they can make up any story they like, and get away with it. You are going to have to admit, greg, that the illegal immigrants are taking you for a ride, and you are too stupid to recognise it.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #233 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:43pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:31pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:17pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:15pm:

When was the last time an asylum seeker got on a boat or aeroplane and came to Australia AFTER they had informed Australian customs authorities that they are seeking asylum? For their own benefit, they could atleast let authorities know of their intentions.

There is absolutely no requirement, under any law or any UN Convention, for an asylum seeker to announce that they will be seeking asylum before they reach their safe destination.

Which means, when caught, they can make up any story they like, and get away with it. You are going to have to admit, greg, that the illegal immigrants are taking you for a ride, and you are too stupid to recognise it.

I know exactly what the illegal immigrants are up to.

"There are 13 times more illegal immigrants than there are asylum seekers in detention who have arrived by boat."

"Figures obtained by The Advertiser from the Immigration Department and under the Freedom of Information Act show plane arrivals from the United States (5080) and Britain (3610) are near the top of the list of those in the country without a valid visa."

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/illegal-immigrants-arrive-by-plane/story-e6fr...

Put 'em on a plane and send them back to the US and Britain, I say.

On the other hand, though:

"More than 90 per cent of asylum seekers who arrived by boat were found to be genuine refugees ... "

"The figure continues a long-term trend of high approval rates for people arriving by boat, with 93.5 per cent being found to be refugees in 2010-11 and 91 per cent in 2011-12."

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/overwhelming-majority-of-b...

Someone is being taken for a ride alright, but it certainly isn't me. Wink

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #234 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:00pm I'm struggling to care to be honest.
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UnSubRocky Gold Member Offline Crocodile Hunter: Origins Posts: 25029 Rockhampton Gender:	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #235 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:03pm Oh, they just have to mention that they are from some war torn country, and that's all it takes to be granted refugee status.
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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #236 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:12pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:42pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:07pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 8:28pm:

Hey Soren, you've got ian on your side now (he thinks people smuggling is legal).

)

Thats your claim, not mine. I feel sorry for people who feel the need to lie to attempt to win a point on an internet forum.

Incorrect.

It's your claim.

I know full well that people smuggling is illegal, and that's why I made this statement, quite some time ago:

"it is illegal to be a people smuggler" http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404775790/405#405 Twice!

If you claim these people are not entering australia illegally then you are also claiming people smuggling is not a crime because proving it depends on the people entering illegally. Cant have it both ways Greggary. Its your logic, not mine.

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #237 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:16pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:20pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:56pm:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:53pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

whats your point?

That this statement of yours:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

is wrong.

Because, as I said:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

And iof their claim is not recognised they are non genuine asylum seeker ...

If their claim is not recognised, they are non genuine refugees.

Impossible. If their claim is denied this means they are not refugees, not non genuine refugees. They are non genuine asylum seekers who wished to be granted refugee status which was denied. = non genuine asylum seeker.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #238 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:16pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

Oh, they just have to mention that they are from some war torn country, and that's all it takes to be granted refugee status.

"Applications for protection visas are assessed by trained departmental officers.

"All claims for protection are assessed on an individual basis against the criteria contained in the Refugees Convention and the complementary protection criteria, in accordance with Australian legislation, case law and up-to-date information on conditions in the applicant's country of origin.

"Applicants are expected to put their claims in writing. Most applicants are asked to attend an interview to discuss their claims and provide further information if required. Procedural fairness is afforded to all applicants in responding to information that may impact adversely on the outcome of their assessment. Where needed, the department arranges qualified interpreters for any interviews.

"People who are found to be owed protection are eligible for the grant of a protection visa in Australia, provided they satisfy health, character and security checks."

https://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/61protection.htm#e

http://www.aph.gov.au/binaries/library/pubs/bn/sp/asylumfacts.pdf

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/asylum-seekers-and-refugees-guide#process

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #239 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:18pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:16pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:20pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:56pm:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:53pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

whats your point?

That this statement of yours:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

is wrong.

Because, as I said:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

And iof their claim is not recognised they are non genuine asylum seeker ...

If their claim is not recognised, they are non genuine refugees.

Impossible. If their claim is denied this means they are not refugees, not non genuine refugees.

Fine, I'm happy to concede that.

If their claim is denied, they are not refugees.

They are genuine asylum seekers who lied.

Sorted.

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