Australian Politics Forum - Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch

greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #240 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:23pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:12pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:42pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:07pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 8:28pm:

Hey Soren, you've got ian on your side now (he thinks people smuggling is legal).

)

Thats your claim, not mine. I feel sorry for people who feel the need to lie to attempt to win a point on an internet forum.

Incorrect.

It's your claim.

I know full well that people smuggling is illegal, and that's why I made this statement, quite some time ago:

"it is illegal to be a people smuggler" http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404775790/405#405 Twice!

If you claim these people are not entering australia illegally then you are also claiming people smuggling is not a crime because proving it depends on the people entering illegally.

People entering with "no lawful right to come to Australia.", actually.

People smuggling is a crime.

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hermoine

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Australian Politics

Posts: 364

Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #241 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:32pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:18pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:16pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:20pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:56pm:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:53pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

whats your point?

That this statement of yours:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

As i keep pointing out the UN definition of an asylum seeker is someone fleeing persecution, not someone claiming to be fleeing persecution.

is wrong.

Because, as I said:

Stratos wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

And iof their claim is not recognised they are non genuine asylum seeker ...

If their claim is not recognised, they are non genuine refugees.

Impossible. If their claim is denied this means they are not refugees, not non genuine refugees.

Fine, I'm happy to concede that.

If their claim is denied, they are not refugees.

They are genuine asylum seekers who lied.

Sorted.

So basically the legality of their journey hasn't been ascertained yet.

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hermoine Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 364	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #242 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 5:35pm Turn them all back and then we're never wrong, eh Gweggy?
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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #243 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 6:48pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:23pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:12pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:42pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:07pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 8:28pm:

Hey Soren, you've got ian on your side now (he thinks people smuggling is legal).

)

Thats your claim, not mine. I feel sorry for people who feel the need to lie to attempt to win a point on an internet forum.

Incorrect.

It's your claim.

I know full well that people smuggling is illegal, and that's why I made this statement, quite some time ago:

"it is illegal to be a people smuggler" http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404775790/405#405 Twice!

If you claim these people are not entering australia illegally then you are also claiming people smuggling is not a crime because proving it depends on the people entering illegally.

People entering with "no lawful right to come to Australia.", actually.

People smuggling is a crime.

Sorry Greggary,
Quote:

To establish an offence of people smuggling (under either regime) it must be proved that the accused facilitated the

illegal entry

of another person into Australia or a foreign country.

http://www.law.uq.edu.au/index.html?page=156457
yes, it is a crime, a crime of facilitating the illegal entry of another person into australia.

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aquascoot Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 35329 Gender:	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #244 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 6:54pm i wish gweg would sew his lips together. illegals illegals illegals
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Alinta Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1470 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #245 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 7:12pm Ian.....check S233A of the Migration Act. I think the Uni Law School article use of "illegal entry" is at odds with the legislation.
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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #246 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 7:44pm

Alinta wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 7:12pm:

Ian.....check S233A of the Migration Act. I think the Uni Law School article use of "illegal entry" is at odds with the legislation.

AFP
Quote:

People smugglers are individuals or groups who assist others to illegally enter a country. In the case of Australia, people smugglers provide air or sea access.

http://www.afp.gov.au/policing/people-smuggling.aspx

Aust institute of crime
Quote:

Although the facilitated illegal movement of people across international borders isn’t
a “new” crime, “people smuggling” is considered to be the fastest-growing form of
transnational crime today.

http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/conferences/outlook4/tailby.pdf

And an actual court case regarding people smuggling

Quote:

The defendant was the captain of a vessel boarded on 6 October 2008 by the Royal Australian Navy. There were 14 suspected illegal immigrants on board

http://www.cdpp.gov.au/case-reports/?casestudy_category=people-smuggling

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Datalife Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2405 Gender:	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #247 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 7:46pm aquascoot wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 6:54pm: i wish gweg would sew his lips together. illegals illegals illegals His other favourite subject is the joys of buggery.
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Soren

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #248 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 7:53pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:07pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:02pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 10:29am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:59am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

Soren got his little ass owned Grin

I think you had your arse handed to you. Especially when you made some concessions that asylum seekers aren't necessarily refugees. Aren't your proving us right that someone traveling half way around the world isn't genuinely a refugee? They are economic migrants that don't want to wait.

You seem to be confusing 'refugees' with 'asylum seekers'.

If someone says they are seeking asylum, they are a genuine asylum seeker. No 'ifs', no 'buts'.

However, that does not necessarily mean that they are a genuine refugee.

Nobody has ever suggested that all asylum seekers are genuine refugees. We know for a fact that some are not.

What bloody difference does it make? They entered a new country without informing the country that they were seeking asylum ...

Um, no.

When they enter the country that's exactly what they do: they announce that they are seeking asylum.

And that's exactly why they are sent to Manus and are told that they will never settle in Australia.

Australia decides who and how can come here. As infuriatingly simple as that. You enter without authorisation? You are off to Hellhole Island. If you want to settle here as a refugee, go through the proper UN channels. If you want to claim asylum here, make sure you enter with a passport and a visa. No passport, no visa, no authorisation to enter - and you still enter, you are fked. No work-around, pal.

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« Last Edit: Jul 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm by Soren »

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #249 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 8:01pm greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:18pm: Fine, I'm happy to concede that. If their claim is denied, they are not refugees. They are genuine asylum seekers who lied. Sorted. You are an idiot.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #250 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 8:12pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 6:48pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:23pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 4:12pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 1:42pm:

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:07pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 8:28pm:

Hey Soren, you've got ian on your side now (he thinks people smuggling is legal).

)

Thats your claim, not mine. I feel sorry for people who feel the need to lie to attempt to win a point on an internet forum.

Incorrect.

It's your claim.

I know full well that people smuggling is illegal, and that's why I made this statement, quite some time ago:

"it is illegal to be a people smuggler" http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404775790/405#405 Twice!

If you claim these people are not entering australia illegally then you are also claiming people smuggling is not a crime because proving it depends on the people entering illegally.

People entering with "no lawful right to come to Australia.", actually.

People smuggling is a crime.

Sorry Greggary,
Quote:

To establish an offence of people smuggling (under either regime) it must be proved that the accused facilitated the

illegal entry

of another person into Australia or a foreign country.

http://www.law.uq.edu.au/index.html?page=156457
yes, it is a crime, a crime of facilitating the illegal entry of another person into australia.

Sorry, ian. You're not quoting from the legislation.

The law actually says "no lawful right to come to Australia."

It's not illegal to come without a visa.

And, it's not illegal to pay a people smuggler.

However, it is illegal to be a people smuggler.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #251 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 8:14pm Soren wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 7:53pm: Australia decides who and how can come here. As infuriatingly simple as that. You enter without authorisation? You are off to Hellhole Island. Unless you are an american journalist of course. Those get luxury hotels
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #252 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 8:14pm

Soren wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:07pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 3:02pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 10:29am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 12:59am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

Soren got his little ass owned Grin

I think you had your arse handed to you. Especially when you made some concessions that asylum seekers aren't necessarily refugees. Aren't your proving us right that someone traveling half way around the world isn't genuinely a refugee? They are economic migrants that don't want to wait.

You seem to be confusing 'refugees' with 'asylum seekers'.

If someone says they are seeking asylum, they are a genuine asylum seeker. No 'ifs', no 'buts'.

However, that does not necessarily mean that they are a genuine refugee.

Nobody has ever suggested that all asylum seekers are genuine refugees. We know for a fact that some are not.

What bloody difference does it make? They entered a new country without informing the country that they were seeking asylum ...

Um, no.

When they enter the country that's exactly what they do: they announce that they are seeking asylum.

And that's exactly why they are sent to Manus and atrer told that they will never settle in Australia.

Australia decides who and how can come here. As infuriatingly simple as that. You enter without authorisation? You are off to Hellhole Island. If you want to settle here as a refugee, go through the proper UN channels. If you want to claim asylum here, make sure you enter with a passport and a visa. No passport, no visa, no authorisation to enter - and you still enter, you are fked. No work-around, pal.

Yes, that's correct.

You seem to be arguing with yourself. Not sure why that is.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #253 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 8:22pm

ian wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 7:44pm:

Alinta wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 7:12pm:

Ian.....check S233A of the Migration Act. I think the Uni Law School article use of "illegal entry" is at odds with the legislation.

AFP
Quote:

People smugglers are individuals or groups who assist others to illegally enter a country. In the case of Australia, people smugglers provide air or sea access.

http://www.afp.gov.au/policing/people-smuggling.aspx

Aust institute of crime
Quote:

Although the facilitated illegal movement of people across international borders isn’t
a “new” crime, “people smuggling” is considered to be the fastest-growing form of
transnational crime today.

http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/conferences/outlook4/tailby.pdf

And an actual court case regarding people smuggling

Quote:

The defendant was the captain of a vessel boarded on 6 October 2008 by the Royal Australian Navy. There were 14 suspected illegal immigrants on board

http://www.cdpp.gov.au/case-reports/?casestudy_category=people-smuggling

You were told exactly where to look, yet you chose to ignore the advice.

Web sites aren't legislation, ian. You need to look at the Act (as you were advised).

"Offence of people smuggling
         (1) A person (the first person ) commits an offence if:

                  (a) the first person organises or facilitates the bringing or coming to Australia, or the entry or proposed entry into Australia, of another person (the second person ); and

                  (b) the second person is a non-citizen; and

                  (c) the second person had, or has, no lawful right to come to Australia."

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ma1958118/s233a.html

I've highlighted the relevant parts, to make it easier for you.

You will notice, of course, that the word "illegal" does not appear anywhere.

To recap:

Enter without a visa = not illegal
Pay a people smuggler = not illegal
Be a people smuggler = illegal

Here endeth the lesson.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 140094 Gender:	Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch Reply #254 - Jul 15^th, 2014 at 9:09pm Alinta wrote on Jul 15^th, 2014 at 7:12pm: Ian.....check S233A of the Migration Act. I think the Uni Law School article use of "illegal entry" is at odds with the legislation. Correct. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ma1958118/s233a.html
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