Australian Politics Forum - Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch

greggerypeccary

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #60 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:05am

Gnads wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 8:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 11:49am:

ian wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 10:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

Yes, how dastardly of those evil women to do all they can to avoid having their children sent back to those lovely peaceful paradises in Syria and Iraq.

Didnt they come here from Indonesia? what threat were they under there?

Indonesia does not process and settle asylum seekers. They were in legal limbo there.

So why should we?

http://www.unhcr.org/3b73b0d63.html

States Parties to the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees and the 1967 Protocol

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #61 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:08am

Quote:

So an Iranian or Syrian can just drop everything and say "hmmm, I think I'll go live and work in Indonesia"?

I don't think so.

ian wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 4:56pm:

One with money can.

Source? Frankly I don't believe you.

Everything I've read about Indonesian migration laws says you require a sponsor (Indonesia citizen) to stay any longer than 3 months. I know in Malaysia its absurdly difficult for a foreigner to get permanent residence - especially for someone from a place like Iran.

Just because a country is poor, doesn't mean they are open slather for importing rich foreigners.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #62 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:12am

Gnads wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 7:00pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

Yes, how dastardly of those evil women to do all they can to avoid having their children sent back to those lovely peaceful paradises in Syria and Iraq.

They are not Syrian nor Iraqi ... more likely Lebanese or Iranian...

They were from Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #63 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:58am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:08am:

Quote:

So an Iranian or Syrian can just drop everything and say "hmmm, I think I'll go live and work in Indonesia"?

I don't think so.

ian wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 4:56pm:

One with money can.

Source? Frankly I don't believe you.

Its well documented that these people are flying into Indonesia on tourist visas and pre paying their passage to australia to the tune of around 20,000 per person.

Quote:

Everything I've read about Indonesian migration laws says you require a sponsor (Indonesia citizen) to stay any longer than 3 months. I know in Malaysia its absurdly difficult for a foreigner to get permanent residence - especially for someone from a place like Iran.

Just because a country is poor, doesn't mean they are open slather for importing rich foreigners.

laws mean little in Indonesia if you have money, (Tommy Suharto got 3 years for murdering a judge and spent his jail sentence vacationing in Europe) particularly if you are an arab muslim with money, thats another fact. These people are openly running businesses in Indonesia, this was reported on by Australian journalists some time ago.

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #64 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:00am

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 8:46am:

ian wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 7:11pm:

ian wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 4:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 12:34pm:

ian wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 12:09pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 11:49am:

ian wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 10:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

Yes, how dastardly of those evil women to do all they can to avoid having their children sent back to those lovely peaceful paradises in Syria and Iraq.

Didnt they come here from Indonesia? what threat were they under there?

Indonesia does not process and settle asylum seekers. They were in legal limbo there.

Only as asylum seekers. Indonesia allows them to stay, work and everything else without threat of persecution.

So an Iranian or Syrian can just drop everything and say "hmmm, I think I'll go live and work in Indonesia"?

I don't think so.

One with money can. Dont think that these asylum seekers coming from Indonesia are poor with nothing but the clothes on their back, that isnt the case.

Completely irrelevant.

not to us adults.

Even a child would understand that the amount of money an asylum seeker has is completely irrelevant to their refugee status.

Astounding ignorance.

You seem to be arguing with yourself, I didnt claim that.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #65 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:09am

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:58am:

Its well documented that these people are flying into Indonesia on tourist visas and pre paying their passage to australia to the tune of around 20,000 per person.

Not in dispute.

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:58am:

aws mean little in Indonesia if you have money, (Tommy Suharto got 3 years for murdering a judge and spent his jail sentence vacationing in Europe) particularly if you are an arab muslim with money, thats another fact.

Just more unsubstantiated waffle.

Even if you are right, they would be living their whole life, and bringing up their children as illegal aliens. Sooner or later it will catch up on them - even in a corrupt place like Indonesia. Asylum seekers are typically people fleeing persecution from the law - they want the certainty and stability that comes with being legally settled and legally recognised in a safe place. Its unreasonable to expect them to remain living illegally forever - especially for someone who is so morally high and mighty about people daring to make the "illegal" trip to Australia.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #66 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:15am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:58am:

Its well documented that these people are flying into Indonesia on tourist visas and pre paying their passage to australia to the tune of around 20,000 per person.

Not in dispute.

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:58am:

aws mean little in Indonesia if you have money, (Tommy Suharto got 3 years for murdering a judge and spent his jail sentence vacationing in Europe) particularly if you are an arab muslim with money, thats another fact.

Just more unsubstantiated waffle.

Even if you are right, they would be living their whole life, and bringing up their children as illegal aliens. Sooner or later it will catch up on them - even in a corrupt place like Indonesia. Asylum seekers are typically people fleeing persecution from the law - they want the certainty and stability that comes with being legally settled and legally recognised in a safe place. Its unreasonable to expect them to remain living illegally forever - especially for someone who is so morally high and mighty about people daring to make the "illegal" trip to Australia.

Not the point really, we always get told that these people are living some type of hand to mouth existence in Indonesia where they have no legal rights, this is so far from the truth it isnt funny but it is used constantly in a bid to extract sympathy for these people. It is quite easy in Indonesia to buy a permanent residents visa and I am sure many of these people do therefore making their presence perfectly legal. You dont want to believe the truth , thats your problem.

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Gnads

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #67 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:35am

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:15am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:58am:

Its well documented that these people are flying into Indonesia on tourist visas and pre paying their passage to australia to the tune of around 20,000 per person.

Not in dispute.

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 10:58am:

aws mean little in Indonesia if you have money, (Tommy Suharto got 3 years for murdering a judge and spent his jail sentence vacationing in Europe) particularly if you are an arab muslim with money, thats another fact.

Just more unsubstantiated waffle.

Even if you are right, they would be living their whole life, and bringing up their children as illegal aliens. Sooner or later it will catch up on them - even in a corrupt place like Indonesia. Asylum seekers are typically people fleeing persecution from the law - they want the certainty and stability that comes with being legally settled and legally recognised in a safe place. Its unreasonable to expect them to remain living illegally forever - especially for someone who is so morally high and mighty about people daring to make the "illegal" trip to Australia.

Not the point really, we always get told that these people are living some type of hand to mouth existence in Indonesia where they have no legal rights, this is so far from the truth it isnt funny but it is used constantly in a bid to extract sympathy for these people. It is quite easy in Indonesia to buy a permanent residents visa and I am sure many of these people do therefore making their presence perfectly legal. You dont want to believe the truth , thats your problem.

Amen.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #68 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:49am

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:15am:

we always get told that these people are living some type of hand to mouth existence in Indonesia

Rubbish - thats entirely your invention.

Asylum seeker advocates emphasise the obligation Australia has under its international commitments to process asylum seekers fairly and properly - not to throw them back where they came from, or dump them in a third world island and wash our hands of the problem. Whether they are rich or poor, pre-booked a boat before fleeing, or able to do business in Indonesia is completely beside the point.

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:15am:

It is quite easy in Indonesia to buy a permanent residents visa and I am sure many of these people do therefore making their presence perfectly legal.

You're just repeating baseless claims. But in any case, I merely reiterate my point that you condemn these people for attempting something you deem as illegal (paying smugglers to reach Australia), but on the same token seem to think that doing something that is undeniably illegal - corruptly buy a permanent visa in Indonesia - is a valid and even preferable alternative.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #69 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:54am

Greens senator Sarah Hanson-Young tweets, Monday:

THE Abbott Govt’s forced return of refugees back to the hands of their persecutors is an international disgrace

Fairfax reporter Jason Koutsoukis tweets, yesterday:

ALL passengers on board the ship I have spoken to have told me they were economic refugees …

Rigorous imprisonment! Britain’s The Independent, Monday:

AUSTRALIA is facing international condemnation after it confirmed it handed a boat of asylum-seekers to the government of Sri Lanka where they now face “rigorous imprisonment”.

Rigorous imprisonment? Koutsoukis tweets, yesterday:

FIVE organisers of the boat carrying 41 Sri Lankan asylum-seekers have been remanded. The other 36 have been bailed. Children released without bail. Adults will be required to pay … around $40 AUD for bail.

Jared Owens, The Australian, Monday:

GREENS leader Christine Milne said the government had clearly breached international law by returning the asylum-seekers. “It is against all international law, it is against decency, it is in contravention of the United Nations and it’s appalling.”

Koutsoukis tweets, yesterday:

KASUN Jayasekara just said he was happy to be home and not in “an Australian island prison”. Sujeewa Saparamadu, 42 ... wife of … the man who organised the voyage … complains that Australian officials confiscated her iPhone 5, her daughter’s digital camera, and her husband’s gold credit cards.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/cutandpaste/oh-the-horror-oh-the-shame-e...

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #70 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 1:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:49am:

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:15am:

we always get told that these people are living some type of hand to mouth existence in Indonesia

Rubbish - thats entirely your invention.

Asylum seeker advocates emphasise the obligation Australia has under its international commitments to process asylum seekers fairly and properly - not to throw them back where they came from, or dump them in a third world island and wash our hands of the problem. Whether they are rich or poor, pre-booked a boat before fleeing, or able to do business in Indonesia is completely beside the point.

no, that is exactly the point. Taking in only wealthy refugees is a ridiculous policy and one which you are advocating.

Quote:

You're just repeating baseless claims. But in any case, I merely reiterate my point that you condemn these people for attempting something you deem as illegal (paying smugglers to reach Australia), but on the same token seem to think that doing something that is undeniably illegal - corruptly buy a permanent visa in Indonesia - is a valid and even preferable alternative.

Its common knowledge that Indonesia is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, not sure why you somehow think this is a "baseless claim". Im also not "condemning" these asylum seekers, those are your words, not mine. I am simply stating the facts and saying that we should not be basing our refugee intake policy on who has the most money and resources to actually get here. I think that is a perfectly valid argument.

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ian

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #71 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 1:23pm

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 11:54am:

KASUN Jayasekara just said he was happy to be home and not in “an Australian island prison”. Sujeewa Saparamadu, 42 ... wife of … the man who organised the voyage … complains that Australian officials

confiscated her iPhone 5, her daughter’s digital camera, and her husband’s gold credit cards.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/cutandpaste/oh-the-horror-oh-the-shame-e...

Oh well, they had to use their travellers cheques probably. Poor old reffos.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #72 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 2:39pm

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Taking in only wealthy refugees is a ridiculous policy and one which you are advocating.

Here's where your argument becomes completely unhinged.

How do you suppose we differentiate between "wealthy" and "poor" refugees? You have some means test in mind? Don't be so absurd - a refugee is a refugee, it has never been about their position in society or their personal wealth. Our international obligations that we willingly signed up on has never made such an arbitrary distinction.

You think the "good" refugees that we accept from the UN are all poor and therefore more deserving? What rubbish.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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hermoine

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #73 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 2:45pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 2:39pm:

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Taking in only wealthy refugees is a ridiculous policy and one which you are advocating.

Here's where your argument becomes completely unhinged.

How do you suppose we differentiate between "wealthy" and "poor" refugees? You have some means test in mind? Don't be so absurd - a refugee is a refugee, it has never been about their position in society or their personal wealth. Our international obligations that we willingly signed up on has never made such an arbitrary distinction.

You think the "good" refugees that we accept from the UN are all poor and therefore more deserving? What rubbish.

So you have no problem with a visa being granted to rich asylum seekers over a family living in a cardboard box. Undecided

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Soren

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Re: Nine asylum-seeker mums on self-harm watch
Reply #74 - Jul 11^th, 2014 at 2:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 2:39pm:

ian wrote on Jul 11^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Taking in only wealthy refugees is a ridiculous policy and one which you are advocating.

Here's where your argument becomes completely unhinged.

How do you suppose we differentiate between "wealthy" and "poor" refugees? You have some means test in mind? Don't be so absurd - a refugee is a refugee, it has never been about their position in society or their personal wealth. Our international obligations that we willingly signed up on has never made such an arbitrary distinction.

You think the "good" refugees that we accept from the UN are all poor and therefore more deserving? What rubbish.

It has been about the degree of need.

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