Australian Politics Forum - R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay

Sophia

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #45 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:37pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:24pm:

red baron wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:15pm:

Ever seen a woman's finger nail scrapes on a man's face. I have a number of times in my Police days. Funny thing is Aussie, they look remarkably like the scrapes on Baden-Clay's face, funny about that huh?

Thing is if it looks like fingernail scrapes, chances are......

Still trying to figure out a razor that would make marks like that, perhaps he shaved with a brickie's trowel.

Who knows, but where is the forensic evidence of HIS skin tissue under her fingernails? Answer ~ there was NONE, and you would expect there to be. That there was none tells you what, Mr Baron?

I wondered about that also, that she would have had some tissue under her fingernails, but...as she was dumped in the water, wouldn't that have cleared away that sort of loose evidence? They didn't find her body until about 10 days later.

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Aussie

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #46 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:39pm

Sophia wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:37pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:24pm:

red baron wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:15pm:

Ever seen a woman's finger nail scrapes on a man's face. I have a number of times in my Police days. Funny thing is Aussie, they look remarkably like the scrapes on Baden-Clay's face, funny about that huh?

Thing is if it looks like fingernail scrapes, chances are......

Still trying to figure out a razor that would make marks like that, perhaps he shaved with a brickie's trowel.

Who knows, but where is the forensic evidence of HIS skin tissue under her fingernails? Answer ~ there was NONE, and you would expect there to be. That there was none tells you what, Mr Baron?

I wondered about that also, that she would have had some tissue under her fingernails, but...as she was dumped in the water, wouldn't that have cleared away that sort of loose evidence? They didn't find her body until about 10 days later.

Was she dumped in the water? She was found above the high water mark on the banks of some creek.

And further, while I was not in Court listening to every word, I read or heard nothing which explains the absence of that evidence. NB ~ I said evidence which explains why there was no skin tissue of his found under the nails.

There was evidence that some tissue was found under a nail (I think a left hand nail,) but it was not identified as his tissue.

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Aussie

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #47 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:47pm

In summary ~ so far:

1. Her blood found in the car. No evidence of a corresponding laceration or other body disfigurement which could link that to the state of her body at the time of her demise. Further, no evidence of any struggle anywhere which might have suggested she was injured causing a blood flow.

2. Marks on his face. No-one says that they are without doubt in fact fingernail scrathches, and no skin tissue of his found under her nails, bit someones (no his) was found under her nail.

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Sophia

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #48 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:47pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:14pm:

Sophia wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:01pm:

red baron wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 2:48pm:

No, no, no, buzzanddidj, what you are trying to do is draw a line of association between the Chamberlain matter and the Baden-Clay matter.

There is no link whatsoever either by inference, association or fact.

Baden-Clay has been justly convicted - end of story.

You see no matter much you bang on, he has just been given a Life Sentence, so all of this is just admin.

Cods - your comments about Allison Baden-Clay were correct, she was a lovely person. Anyone who had been following the trial closely would have seen that very early in the piece.

I listened to the victim impact statements closely, it demonstrated how much love there was for her in her family.

Was very sad to hear her dad saying that he failed her as a father to protect her, and will haunt him for the rest of his life. I wish he wouldn't blame himself for that, after all, who's to know? It appears there were no warning signs of the son-in-law being violent or threatening.
My guess is that when people do something during a heated argument, some say, they 'blacked out' and don't remember picking up a knife and stabbing their partner etc.
How can any father or mother, protect their adult child from anything like that?

They can't and that very fact puts the correct spotlight on the bizarre, self absorbed almost narcissist comment from her Father.

Sounds more like he would be regretful he wasn't more cluey about what was going on to tell his daughter to leave the bloke.....but as most of us know, many don't want to interfere with our adult kids once they get into relationships and have children....thinking they would sort out their problems somehow. I think any dad would have felt the same way as Allison's dad, we all tend to put some blame on ourselves when things can go wrong....narcissist?...more like the old fashioned head of the household bread winner type of thinking.
He reared his daugther up only to have her taken in the prime of her life, before she could even finish rearing her own children.

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red baron Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10204 Blue Mountains Gender:	Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay Reply #49 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:50pm You know what the system tells me about all this Aussie? I seem to recall one of your earlier posts, where you went to great lengths to cover the role of the Jury in glory. Well this Jury did its job and that bastard who murdered his wife, has at least 15 years to think it over.
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Annie Anthrax

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #50 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:54pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:14pm:

Sophia wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:01pm:

red baron wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 2:48pm:

No, no, no, buzzanddidj, what you are trying to do is draw a line of association between the Chamberlain matter and the Baden-Clay matter.

There is no link whatsoever either by inference, association or fact.

Baden-Clay has been justly convicted - end of story.

You see no matter much you bang on, he has just been given a Life Sentence, so all of this is just admin.

Cods - your comments about Allison Baden-Clay were correct, she was a lovely person. Anyone who had been following the trial closely would have seen that very early in the piece.

I listened to the victim impact statements closely, it demonstrated how much love there was for her in her family.

Was very sad to hear her dad saying that he failed her as a father to protect her, and will haunt him for the rest of his life. I wish he wouldn't blame himself for that, after all, who's to know? It appears there were no warning signs of the son-in-law being violent or threatening.
My guess is that when people do something during a heated argument, some say, they 'blacked out' and don't remember picking up a knife and stabbing their partner etc.
How can any father or mother, protect their adult child from anything like that?

They can't and that very fact puts the correct spotlight on the bizarre, self absorbed almost narcissist comment from her Father.

What an awful thing to say, Aussie. It isn't bizarre or self-absorbed for a father (particularly of that generation) to feel guilt at giving permission for a man to marry his daughter who would then not only betray her, but kill her. And that's what he said - that Baden-Clay approached him for permission and he gave it. The guilt may be unwarranted, but it's understandable.

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Aussie

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #51 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:55pm

red baron wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:50pm:

You know what the system tells me about all this Aussie?

I seem to recall one of your earlier posts, where you went to great lengths to cover the role of the Jury in glory.

Well this Jury did its job and that bastard who murdered his wife, has at least 15 years to think it over.

I very much doubt that. I've seen them come out with the most inexplicable outcomes. I have also seen them influenced outrageously by the Trial Judge, but there is no evidence of that in the cold Transcript. Judges are adept (if they have chosen to in any particular case) at getting their personal view across by tone of voice, phrasing, and all of body language.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38870 Gender:	Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay Reply #52 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:59pm Quote: The guilt may be unwarranted, but it's understandable. It is unwarranted and it is also inexplicable except in context of bizarre self absorption. He would have been better served to say nothing or, do what her brother did, and passionately abuse the living shite out of Clay.
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Sophia Gold Member Offline Posts: 8642	Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay Reply #53 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 5:04pm Yes my mistake Aussie, she was found under a bridge by the creek bank, here I was thinking she would have been in the water at some stage. I found this timeline of the event. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-15/baden-clay-murder-trial-timeline/5585176
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Sophia

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #54 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 5:09pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:59pm:

Quote:

The guilt may be unwarranted, but it's understandable.

It is unwarranted and it is also inexplicable except in context of bizarre self absorption. He would have been better served to say nothing or, do what her brother did, and passionately abuse the living shite out of Clay.

Without knowing much of the father's character, I would say, that the quiet type of person isn't one to do as his (more of the modern day) son did, to be more openly abusive, whereas his generation are more likely to be quietly introverted and saying something more critical of themselves instead. Grief has different ways of bringing emotions and attitudes out.
Self blame.....or blame...is one of the stages.

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Phemanderac

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #55 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 5:15pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 11:35am:

Aussie wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 10:05am:

cods wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 8:50am:

Justice for a lovely lady...you can rest in peace now.may your children find peace in your loving memory.

Did you know her personally, cods?

This whole public outpouring of grief - over total strangers - is a relatively new phenomena

I first detected it in the murder of Jill Meagher - in Brunswick, Victoria

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/09/29/1226483/980405-tribute-to-jill-m...

... and more recently on the murder of Chinese national Renee Lau, in King's Domain, Melbourne

http://www.au123.com/picture/u/cms/www/201407/03180318dw2h.jpg

As best I can see - so far - this public grief only admits women victims

I'd be curious to see what a psychiatrist would make of the whole thing ?

Not sure that a psychiatrist would make much of it, however, I did hear a sociologist speaking of a similar idea a few years back.

She was talking about the road side memorials for people killed in traffic related accidents.

From the sociological stand point she said that this action seems to be more of a sign that we as a society have stopped learning how to grieve appropriately (that is a heavily condensed essence of what she said sentence). She didn't say it was good or bad, but just a sign that more appropriate forms of demonstrating grief were not being taught, adhered to or simply were being left behind. She also highlighted (at the time) a spate of "attacks" on a couple of cemeteries as symptomatic of this as well.

I certainly don't know what the answer is though.

Of course, the thing I always try to bare in mind with the celebrity deaths (yeah, they might not have been a celebrity until after their death, but once the media have their claws in.... You know the rest) is that there may have been a few hundred others dying similarly that same day whom we just never hear about, ergo they get none of our public grief...

This murder is sad, but, so too are a myriad of other murders, suicides, death by accident and/or natural causes.

Sadness is a part of life and without it, would we truly experience the opposite - happiness?

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Aussie

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #56 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 5:17pm

Sophia wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 5:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:59pm:

Quote:

The guilt may be unwarranted, but it's understandable.

It is unwarranted and it is also inexplicable except in context of bizarre self absorption. He would have been better served to say nothing or, do what her brother did, and passionately abuse the living shite out of Clay.

Without knowing much of the father's character, I would say, that the quiet type of person isn't one to do as his (more of the modern day) son did, to be more openly abusive, whereas his generation are more likely to be quietly introverted and saying something more critical of themselves instead. Grief has different ways of bringing emotions and attitudes out.
Self blame.....or blame...is one of the stages.

I am his generation. The last thing you would have heard from me (or mates of mine my age) would have been silly blubbery rubbish about a mistake in allowing my daughter (as if I would have been able to stop her) to marry some bloke who, years later, was convicted of murdering her. I'd just murder him, and you'd be reading about my Trial, and conviction. You would not be hearing reports of me saying anything.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38870 Gender:	Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay Reply #57 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 5:56pm I can't vouch for this being genuine, but it is suggested this is a photo of the aforesaid blood. Does not look like much to me. As I've said, I'll bet there is evidence of the blood of many in Cabs.....means SFA.
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Sophia

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #58 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 6:11pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 5:17pm:

Sophia wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 5:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 16^th, 2014 at 4:59pm:

Quote:

The guilt may be unwarranted, but it's understandable.

It is unwarranted and it is also inexplicable except in context of bizarre self absorption. He would have been better served to say nothing or, do what her brother did, and passionately abuse the living shite out of Clay.

Without knowing much of the father's character, I would say, that the quiet type of person isn't one to do as his (more of the modern day) son did, to be more openly abusive, whereas his generation are more likely to be quietly introverted and saying something more critical of themselves instead. Grief has different ways of bringing emotions and attitudes out.
Self blame.....or blame...is one of the stages.

I am his generation. The last thing you would have heard from me (or mates of mine my age) would have been silly blubbery rubbish about a mistake in allowing my daughter (as if I would have been able to stop her) to marry some bloke who, years later, was convicted of murdering her. I'd just murder him, and you'd be reading about my Trial, and conviction. You would not be hearing reports of me saying anything.

I can say you do sound like my hubby, that he wouldn't say much either, he would 'just do' something, and I have often heard him say that he would gladly go to jail then.

But her dad didn't do anything like that, he wanted justice and left it up to the courts and evidence, and police, and witnesses and jury, and maybe, if the s-i-l had gotten off, with no closure of how their daughter died, just maybe then, the father may have done something eh?

Here's a thought about the case.....how come Allison's husband didn't come up with this story...that they had a fight, that he wanted to leave her for his lover/mistress, she reacted with clawing at his face and then took off in the night upset and didn't return.

Now that would have been better than all the lies he came up with.....

Them marks on his face, don't look like shaving cuts to me either, and the hubby says he never had cuts with his shavers to look like that...and he does have them often, putting tissues on the cuts, looking like Norman Gunstan! Grin

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Aussie

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Re: R.I.P. Allison Baden-Clay
Reply #59 - Jul 16^th, 2014 at 6:20pm

I've dealt with the marks on his face. My point will not get any stronger by repeating it.

Quote:

Here's a thought about the case.....how come Allison's husband didn't come up with this story...that they had a fight, that he wanted to leave her for his lover/mistress, she reacted with clawing at his face and then took off in the night upset and didn't return.

Good point. Why............because it did not happen, according to him. He had zero to do with her death, he said.

If I was innocent of an act, I'd hardly make up some story that, even though in fact I didn't do it, I did and here is my exculpation. I'd just say, nah, not me, like he did.

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