Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Poll Poll
Question: Who can we blame for the war in Gaza?

Israel    
  3 (21.4%)
Hamas    
  6 (42.9%)
Palestinians    
  0 (0.0%)
The USA    
  1 (7.1%)
Egypt    
  0 (0.0%)
Iran    
  0 (0.0%)
All of the above    
  2 (14.3%)
Freemasons    
  2 (14.3%)




Total votes: 14
« Last Modified by: Bobby. on: Aug 9th, 2014 at 6:16pm »

Pages: 1 ... 20 21 22 23 24 ... 45
Send Topic Print
Israel invades Gaza (Read 42011 times)
Soren
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 25654
Gender: male
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #315 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 7:27pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 6:50pm:
“An ideology that divides the world into those who are worth more and those who are worth less, into superior and inferior beings, does not have to reach the dimensions of the German genocide to be wrong.” — Amira Hass



No - but the Jews of the shtetls were not shelling Berlin.



Here's the question I want addressed: what is the Palestinians' responsibility for Israel's retaliation?  Who thinks that Hamas did not want and expect exactly this Israeli response? 



Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 96298
Gender: male
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #316 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 7:58pm
 
I think you’ll find the children currently being mutilated by Israel’s shrapnel don’t know who Hamas is, dear boy.

They’ll learn quick, no?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Annie Anthrax
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Take the plan, spin it
sideways

Posts: 7057
Gender: female
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #317 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:14pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 10:29am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 9:35am:
aquascoot wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:30am:
yadda,  while your font changes give me a migraine  Wink Wink.

that's the basic truth.

if rockets were being fired willy nilly into Sydney or Melbourne from the clubhouse of the banditos motorcycle gang, the public of Sydney or Melbourne (who would be spending half their lives in underground car parks would be screaming for the authorities to use every means at their disposal to end it.



Like murdering thousands of kids in the surrounding homes and suburbs? To get at a criminal element?

You really believe that?




do you really believe its murder?
do you really believe the Israelis are deliberately targeting schools and hospitals .
I don't.
I heard one of the hospitals was hit when Israeli tanks and Palestinians with RPG's were in a fire fight.
that is not murder. far from it and tragic as it is.
I honestly truly believe the aim of the Israelis is to kill armed Hamas fighters and I honestly believe the aim of Hamas is just to kill any jew they can.
thoughts?



Read this:


Quote:
The persistently high civilian death toll in Gaza has raised questions among military analysts and humanitarian law experts over the quality of training of Israeli gunners and their rules of engagement in such heavily populated areas.

The questions were given new urgency after a UN-run school was hit by five artillery shells on Wednesday, killing 16 civilians and injuring 100 more, mostly women and children, and the deaths of 17 others in a crowded market, as the Israel Defence Forces' (IDF) Operation Protective Edge against Hamas entered its 24th day. The IDF has repeatedly cited targeting errors, and blamed Hamas for operating in civilian areas.

However, Andrew Exum, a former US army officer who has studied Israel's military campaigns, said the IDF had a long history of mistakes causing many civilian casualties.

"Errant artillery and air strikes have unfortunately been something of a theme in Israel's conflicts in both southern Lebanon and Gaza over the past two decades. There are good strategic reasons to avoid using air power and artillery in these conflicts: they tend to be pretty indiscriminate in their effects and make it difficult for the population under fire to figure out what they're supposed to do to be safe," said Exum, who was a defence department special adviser on the Middle East.

"I'm not sure what the issue is. In 2006 and 2008, it was pretty clear the IDF's combined armed skills – their ability to integrate artillery and air power into ground campaigns – had atrophied since the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000. But I don't know whether the issue remains poor training, a lack of forward observers talking to the artillery batteries and aircraft, or commanders who just don't think avoiding civilian casualties is a priority."
[...]
"If there are problems of targeting it is probably the product of gaps in intelligence … and collateral damage that is caused by Hamas's use of the cover of the civilian population," said Brom, now a senior research associate at the Institute for National Security Studies, in Tel Aviv.

However, military analysts and human rights observers say the IDF is still using unguided, indirect fire with high-explosive shells, which they argue is inappropriate for a densely populated area like Gaza – where 1.8 million people live in an area the size of the Isle of Wight. The biggest artillery weapon being used is a 155mm howitzer, mounted on tracks to make it mobile. It typically fires a fragmentation shell weighing 44kg that spreads shrapnel over a wide area. Such shells have a lethal radius of 50 to 150 metres and causes injury up to 300 metres from its point of impact. Furthermore, such indirect-fire artillery (meaning it is fired out of direct sight of the target) has a margin of error of 200 to 300 metres.

The use of indirect artillery fire in residential areas is not forbidden under international humanitarian law, but its legality depends on a balance between potential military gain against risk of harm to non-combatants. On that basis, Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International's senior crisis response adviser, said it was hard to see a military justification for it


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/gaza-civilian-death-toll-military-t...
Back to top
 

I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway.
 
IP Logged
 
it_is_the_light
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Christ Light

Posts: 41434
The Pyramid of LIGHT
Gender: male
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #318 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:17pm
 
Quote:
Here's the question I want addressed: what is the Palestinians' responsibility for Israel's retaliation?  Who thinks that Hamas did not want and expect exactly this Israeli response? 




many blessings ,

the self confessed freemason soren discounts

that mossad created and controls hamas ..

the ignorance displayed does not give

these khazars pretending to be jews the right

to kill innocent civilians as divine light continues

to descend upon your world ..

and so it is


http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

Hamas is a Creation of Mossad

by Hassane Zerouky


...


by Hassane Zerouky

Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation

Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".



Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association. Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement. .According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad."

The Islamists set up orphanages and health clinics, as well as a network of schools, workshops which created employment for women as well as system of financial aid to the poor. And in 1978, they created an "Islamic University" in Gaza. "The military authority was convinced that these activities would weaken both the PLO and the leftist organizations in Gaza." At the end of 1992, there were six hundred mosques in Gaza. Thanks to Israel’s intelligence agency Mossad (Israel’s Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks) , the Islamists were allowed to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, the members of Fatah (Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine) and the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression.

In 1984, Ahmed Yassin was arrested and condemned to twelve years in prison, after the discovery of a hidden arms cache. But one year later, he was set free and resumed his activities. And when the Intifada (‘uprising’) began, in October 1987, which took the Islamists by surprise, Sheik Yassin responded by creating the Hamas (The Islamic Resistance Movement): "God is our beginning, the prophet our model, the Koran our constitution", proclaims article 7 of the charter of the organization.

Ahmed Yassin was in prison when, the Oslo accords (Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government) were signed in September 1993. The Hamas had rejected Oslo outright. But at that time, 70% of Palestinians had condemned the attacks on Israeli civilians. Yassin did everything in his power to undermine the Oslo accords. Even prior to Prime Minister Rabin’s death, he had the support of the Israeli government. The latter was very reluctant to implement the peace agreement.

The Hamas then launched a carefully timed campaign of attacks against civilians, one day before the meeting between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators, regarding the formal recognition of Israel by the National Palestinian Council. These events were largely instrumental in the formation of a Right wing Israeli government following the May 1996 elections.

Quite unexpectedly, Prime Minister Netanyahu ordered Sheik Ahmed Yassin to be released from prison ("on humanitarian grounds") where he was serving a life sentence. Meanwhile, Netanyahu, together with President Bill Clinton, was putting pressure on Arafat to control the Hamas. In fact, Netanyahu knew that he could rely, once more, on the Islamists to sabotage the Oslo accords. Worse still: after having expelled Yassin to Jordan, Prime Minister Netanyahu allowed him to return to Gaza, where he was welcomed triumphantly as a hero in October 1997.

Arafat was helpless in the face of these events. Moreover, because he had supported Saddam Hussein during the1991 Gulf war, (while the Hamas had cautiously abstained from taking sides), the Gulf states decided to cut off their financing of the Palestinian Authority. Meanwhile, between February and April 1998, Sheik Ahmad Yassin was able to raise several hundred million dollars,



Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09

this senator is quite privy to whats what

moreso than some lightweight whom cannot

perform proper research

that is of and in due course forgiven

so carry on regardless

namaste

- : ) =
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:28pm by it_is_the_light »  

ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : )  ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯
it_is_the_light it_is_the_light Christ+Light Christ+Light  
IP Logged
 
ImSpartacus2
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6913
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #319 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:18pm
 
..
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:25pm by ImSpartacus2 »  
 
IP Logged
 
ImSpartacus2
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6913
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #320 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:19pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 7:05pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 6:23pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 5:26pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 5:17pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 3:15pm:
adelcrow wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 2:56pm:
Israel is the occupying force in Palestine so blaming Hamas for the deaths caused by Israels most recent invasion and bombing of Gaza is like the Nazis in WW 2 murdering tens of thousands of French civilians and then blaming the Partisans because they live in the same area.
Due to the blockade by Israel the residents of Gaza have no where to go when the Jews started their murderous rampage so the only people to blame are the Jews.


How are Israel an 'occupying force' when they pulled all their troops and citizens out almost a decade ago??

That's like Poland claiming Germany is occupying Warsaw in 1956....

And what do you say about those fortified settlements , inclreasing in number every day while Israel puts its hand on its heart crying crocodile tears about how desperately it wants peace.

You know there is a concept in the criminal law called "willful blindness". That's where you know that something exists that makes your conduct a crime but you just simply tell yourself it doesn't exist.  A lot of people have been convicted for murder on that one.      


And exactly WHICH 'fortified settlements' are there in Gaza???

Can you name them, or show the locations of them??

I was talking about the settlements in what was once Palestinian land on the west bank (mainly) and has been progressively wittled away by Israel. .


SO you think that the settlements in an area controlled by Fatah ( the sworn enemies of Hamas) mean that Israel is 'occupying' Gaza, an entirely separate area????

Wow, that must mean that Canberra is located in Tasmania??
Your doctoring of my post is much like Israel's deceitful misrepresentations of the facts to justify their murder of innocent civilians in Gaza. Read over the wikipedia passage. The world doesn't agree with you. Israel's increased and increasing settlements on occupied land are seriously hampering the peace process and the 2 state solution (which I think you would have to say Israel is not seriously interested in). When people watch their lands being gradually stolen from under their feet they react by fighting, including firing rockets.  I blame Israel and America for not genuinely perusing peace after all these years and because they knew that the day would come when the Palestinians felt that they had no choice but to fight for their lands or live like prisoners like rats in the cage that Israel and America has made for them called Gaza.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ImSpartacus2
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6913
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #321 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:24pm
 
Yadda wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 7:07pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 6:22pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 5:26pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 5:17pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 3:15pm:
adelcrow wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 2:56pm:
Israel is the occupying force in Palestine so blaming Hamas for the deaths caused by Israels most recent invasion and bombing of Gaza is like the Nazis in WW 2 murdering tens of thousands of French civilians and then blaming the Partisans because they live in the same area.
Due to the blockade by Israel the residents of Gaza have no where to go when the Jews started their murderous rampage so the only people to blame are the Jews.


How are Israel an 'occupying force' when they pulled all their troops and citizens out almost a decade ago??

That's like Poland claiming Germany is occupying Warsaw in 1956....

And what do you say about those fortified settlements , inclreasing in number every day while Israel puts its hand on its heart crying crocodile tears about how desperately it wants peace.

You know there is a concept in the criminal law called "willful blindness". That's where you know that something exists that makes your conduct a crime but you just simply tell yourself it doesn't exist.  A lot of people have been convicted for murder on that one.      


And exactly WHICH 'fortified settlements' are there in Gaza???

Can you name them, or show the locations of them??


I was talking about the settlements in what was once Palestinian land on the west bank.....




Oh you mean, in Judea and Samaria ?

Judea, now there is a name.

I wonder what the root of the word 'Judea' is ?            Tongue







So tell me again how you reconcile that position with not giving back Australia to the aboriginal peoples.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ImSpartacus2
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6913
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #322 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:25pm
 
....





Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ImSpartacus2
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6913
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #323 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:28pm
 
Yadda wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 7:19pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 6:22pm:

This is what Wikipedia has to say:

"[Israel] continues to both expand its settlements and settle new areas in the West Bank,[4][5][6][7][8] despite being condemned by 158 out of 166 nations in one vote, and 160 nations out of 171 nations in a different vote, in the UN.[9]

The international community considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal,[10] and the United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[11][12] Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are also considered settlements by the international community, which does not recognise Israel's annexations of these territories.[13] The International Court of Justice also says these settlements are illegal in a 2004 advisory opinion.[14][15][16] In April 2012, UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon, in response to moves by Israel to legalise Israeli outposts, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal, and "runs contrary to Israel's obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations."[17] Similar criticism was advanced by the EU and the US.[18][19] Israel disputes the position of the international community and the legal arguments that were used to declare the settlements illegal.[20]

The presence and ongoing expansion of existing settlements by Israel and the construction of settlement outposts is frequently criticized as an obstacle to the peace process by the Palestinians[21] and third parties, including the United Nations,[22] Russia,[23] the United Kingdom,[24] France,[25] the European Union,[26] and the United States.[22]
"



The peron who composed the wiki piece is mistaken.


International laws does not prohibit a state which was attacked [e.g. the state of Israel, 1948, 1967, 1973], from occupying and annexing the lands of an aggressor, so as to prevent further attacks.


Quote:

"ISRAEL AND INTERNATIONAL LAW
....Israel’s presence in all these areas pending negotiation of new borders is entirely lawful, since Israel entered them lawfully in self-defence. International law forbids acquisition by unlawful force, but not where, as in the case of Israel’s self-defence in 1967, the entry on the territory was lawful. It does not so forbid it,

....for the effect of such prohibition would be to guarantee to all potential aggressors that, even if their aggression failed, all territory lost in the attempt would be automatically returned to them.

Such a rule would be absurd to the point of lunacy. There is no such rule..."

http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1528


except that the majority of the world does not agree with you including Israels major allies . And you'll forgive me but I trust Wikipedia far more then you and those those on an Israel crusade (from your church group are they?) .
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ImSpartacus2
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6913
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #324 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:28pm
 
.... 
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:45pm by ImSpartacus2 »  
 
IP Logged
 
Lord Herbert
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 34441
Gender: male
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #325 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:34pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 5:25pm:
You're generous. There are elements of psychopathy if you read through the posts. Theres a smugness in both Herbert's and Aquascoot's arguments and a kind of weird satisfaction.


I would take the same viewpoint as you, Annie, if I allowed myself to become all-consumed by concern and sympathy for the children in this sorry saga, but it behooves some of us to abandon the tunnel-vision that has you and mantra unwilling to accept the principle of cause-and-effect, and unwilling to admit with whom lies the blame for bringing this tragedy down upon these Palestinian kids.

Over and again the Hamas militants broke the cease-fire agreements with Israel.

In the adult world there are consequences for lobbing hand-grenades into your neighbour's backyard with no regard for the safety of children who might be playing there. And you do this without provocation, over and over again.

I hope the Israeli army removes every last man, woman, and child of Palestinian background ~ right out of the Gaza Strip ~ and then returns this place to some semblance of sanity where rockets aren't launched willy-nilly by idiotic Muslim Neanderthals as has been the case under the Hamas leadership.


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Annie Anthrax
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Take the plan, spin it
sideways

Posts: 7057
Gender: female
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #326 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:41pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:34pm:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 5:25pm:
You're generous. There are elements of psychopathy if you read through the posts. Theres a smugness in both Herbert's and Aquascoot's arguments and a kind of weird satisfaction.



I hope the Israeli army removes every last man, woman, and child of Palestinian background ~ right out of the Gaza Strip ~ and then returns this place to some semblance of sanity where rockets aren't launched willy-nilly by idiotic Muslim Neanderthals as has been the case under the Hamas leadership.





Thanks for proving my point about psychopathy.
Back to top
 

I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway.
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 96298
Gender: male
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #327 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:53pm
 
True, Annie, but Herbie has hope.

There’s hope for us all, no?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Lord Herbert
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 34441
Gender: male
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #328 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 9:03pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 8:41pm:
Thanks for proving my point about psychopathy.


Grin Grin Grin

Well, thanks for proving my point about women having tunnel-vision on issues that need a cool head and a little perspective on The Big Picture.  Smiley

That's why women make lousy politicians.

"Children in detention centres" ... "Children on the boats" ... "Children overboard" ...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Soren
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 25654
Gender: male
Re: Israel invades Gaza
Reply #329 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 9:08pm
 
Karnal wrote on Aug 1st, 2014 at 7:58pm:
I think you’ll find the children currently being mutilated by Israel’s shrapnel don’t know who Hamas is, dear boy.

They’ll learn quick, no?

Their parents do. They elected Hamas.
Is Israel responsible for the Pallos' shite parenting choices?

What the bugger  are they doing shelling Israel if they cannot and will not protect their own children from the response they knew would come???
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 22 23 24 ... 45
Send Topic Print