Australian Politics Forum - Does ISLAM - as a philosophy

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #15 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:36pm

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:54pm:

I agree with you about the global Muslim victimhood complex in a variety of geopolitical contexts (angry Arabs, white rappers etc). I just think it has been around longer than you are willing to acknowledge.

Hmmm I'd suggest you are getting me confused with you...

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2007 at 12:48pm:

most current terrorist attacks or by people from the middle east or by people responding to the current situation in the middle east. It is not Islam that breeds terrorism, but political upheaval and the middle east is where most of the world's political problems currently are. As with most of these problems it can be traced back to past historical events, most of them during or immediately after WWII.

Thats you, not me.

As for what *I* said - I made no mention of how recent these geopolitical contexts were. But if I was pushed I wouldn't be so bold as to say its almost all down to events that happened post WWII. I'd say it goes back to at least the crusades, or more broadly when the west started gaining political-global dominance - at the expense of the previously dominant muslims.

I agree wholeheartedly though with what you said about this complex having little to do with the teachings of Muhammad, or whats in the Quran. These issues are fundamentally non-islamic, though they can take islamic dimesions - and blaming islam is just grasping at simplistic explanations to our problems.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

wally1

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 2055
Gender: male

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #16 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 3:22pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:39am:

even Gandalf has acknowledged the tendency for Muslims to falsely or unreasonably claim aggrieved status.

Actually FD I was just echoing your statement you made in 2007 - that muslim grievances and associated violence isn't a product of islam, but geo-political events and history:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2007 at 12:48pm:

While this is a genuine problem at the moment, not every modern terrorist is a muslim and historically they are no different from any other group. The problem with linking it to Islam is that it suggests that Islam must be either destroyed or contained in order to protect ourselves. You know where that leads...

It would be more accurate and more useful to say that most current terrorist attacks or by people from the middle east or by people responding to the current situation in the middle east. It is not Islam that breeds terrorism, but political upheaval and the middle east is where most of the world's political problems currently are. As with most of these problems it can be traced back to past historical events, most of them during or immediately after WWII.

Pointing the finger at Islam is an association fallacy. It assumes that Islam is the cause of the violence merely because it is associated with the violence. This is just like saying that any other religion is inherently violent because at some time in history violent acts were committed in it's territory or in it's name on a large and organised scale.

Pointing the finger at Islam will inevitably perpetuate the violence. Ending the violence is a far more complicated process that will never be achieved while we grasp for overly simplistic explanations and solutions to our problems.

Find of the year, well done.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49355
At my desk.

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #17 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:36pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:54pm:

I agree with you about the global Muslim victimhood complex in a variety of geopolitical contexts (angry Arabs, white rappers etc). I just think it has been around longer than you are willing to acknowledge.

Hmmm I'd suggest you are getting me confused with you...

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2007 at 12:48pm:

most current terrorist attacks or by people from the middle east or by people responding to the current situation in the middle east. It is not Islam that breeds terrorism, but political upheaval and the middle east is where most of the world's political problems currently are. As with most of these problems it can be traced back to past historical events, most of them during or immediately after WWII.

Thats you, not me.

As for what *I* said - I made no mention of how recent these geopolitical contexts were. But if I was pushed I wouldn't be so bold as to say its almost all down to events that happened post WWII. I'd say it goes back to at least the crusades, or more broadly when the west started gaining political-global dominance - at the expense of the previously dominant muslims.

I agree wholeheartedly though with what you said about this complex having little to do with the teachings of Muhammad, or whats in the Quran. These issues are fundamentally non-islamic, though they can take islamic dimesions - and blaming islam is just grasping at simplistic explanations to our problems.

So teaching vengeance and the escalation of violence, rather than say forgiveness, and blaming all his victims for the horrors he meted out on them, has nothing to do with Muslims doing (or at least, trying to do) the same thing today?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved' Reply #18 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 11:11pm FD, you've been through this argument all before - only you were on the opposite side. Why don't you recall all your spineless apologetics from then and explain it to yourself. Surely there's still a bit of FD 2007 left in there?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96369

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #19 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 12:10am

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:42pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:36pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:54pm:

I agree with you about the global Muslim victimhood complex in a variety of geopolitical contexts (angry Arabs, white rappers etc). I just think it has been around longer than you are willing to acknowledge.

Hmmm I'd suggest you are getting me confused with you...

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2007 at 12:48pm:

most current terrorist attacks or by people from the middle east or by people responding to the current situation in the middle east. It is not Islam that breeds terrorism, but political upheaval and the middle east is where most of the world's political problems currently are. As with most of these problems it can be traced back to past historical events, most of them during or immediately after WWII.

Thats you, not me.

As for what *I* said - I made no mention of how recent these geopolitical contexts were. But if I was pushed I wouldn't be so bold as to say its almost all down to events that happened post WWII. I'd say it goes back to at least the crusades, or more broadly when the west started gaining political-global dominance - at the expense of the previously dominant muslims.

I agree wholeheartedly though with what you said about this complex having little to do with the teachings of Muhammad, or whats in the Quran. These issues are fundamentally non-islamic, though they can take islamic dimesions - and blaming islam is just grasping at simplistic explanations to our problems.

So teaching vengeance and the escalation of violence, rather than say forgiveness, and blaming all his victims for the horrors he meted out on them, has nothing to do with Muslims doing (or at least, trying to do) the same thing today?

It’s an interesting phenomenon, FD. Some would call it an association falacy.

Back to top

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21879
A cat with a view

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #20 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 7:16am

"....an association falacy."

Good and evil.

Like night follows day, and day follows night.

And there are no consequences for our choices, there are only the fates in this life, which we, cruelly, must suffer.

Yes ?i+++

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 14:16
A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

Psalms 37:1
Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
....
7 ......fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved' Reply #21 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 11:30am Interesting, isn't it that you, Yadda a self-avowed Christian keep quoting the Old Testament but we informed by Matty and other Christians that Christians don't believe what the Old Testament teaches. My, my, such contradictions Christian apologists do weave, when they attempt to deceive!
Back to top	"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013. "we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions." Freediver, 2007. IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49355
At my desk.

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #22 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 1:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 11:11pm:

FD, you've been through this argument all before - only you were on the opposite side.

Why don't you recall all your spineless apologetics from then and explain it to yourself. Surely there's still a bit of FD 2007 left in there?

I changed my mind.

Is it spineless when you say those things?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #23 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 2:53pm

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2014 at 1:22pm:

Is it spineless when you say those things?

You tell me - would you say you were being spineless when, for example you said

Quote:

Pointing the finger at Islam will inevitably perpetuate the violence. Ending the violence is a far more complicated process that will never be achieved while we grasp for overly simplistic explanations and solutions to our problems.

?

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96369

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #24 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 6:11pm

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2014 at 1:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 11:11pm:

FD, you've been through this argument all before - only you were on the opposite side.

Why don't you recall all your spineless apologetics from then and explain it to yourself. Surely there's still a bit of FD 2007 left in there?

I changed my mind.

Isn’t that the very definition of spinelessness?

Just a question, FD.

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96369

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #25 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 6:15pm

|dev|null wrote on Jul 28^th, 2014 at 11:30am:

Interesting, isn't it that you, Yadda a self-avowed Christian keep quoting the Old Testament but we informed by Matty and other Christians that Christians don't believe what the Old Testament teaches. My, my, such contradictions Christian apologists do weave, when they attempt to deceive! Grin

Y’s a Karmic Khristian, HB. They don’t believe in Christ.

Back to top

IP Logged

Shakey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 905
Gender: male

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #26 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 6:22pm

What's with muslims gathering crowds in the middle of a street somewhere? In Sydney over the last few weeks they've demonstrated twice in the inner city over Palestine, once at Lakemba over Palestine and a Ramadan street party at Lakemba today. How do they keep getting away with clogging up traffic?? They are an absolute pain in the ass.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49355
At my desk.

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #27 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 6:41pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 28^th, 2014 at 2:53pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2014 at 1:22pm:

Is it spineless when you say those things?

You tell me - would you say you were being spineless when, for example you said

Quote:

Pointing the finger at Islam will inevitably perpetuate the violence. Ending the violence is a far more complicated process that will never be achieved while we grasp for overly simplistic explanations and solutions to our problems.

?

No. Have you figured out yet why I labelled Brian's comments spineless apologetics? Sometimes you make me doubt you even read it.

I now think there are specific aspects of Islam that definitely do contribute to the violence and oppression we see in the modern world that we should point the finger of blame at.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Lionel Edriess

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1932
Gender: male

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #28 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 6:59pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 28^th, 2014 at 6:11pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2014 at 1:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 11:11pm:

FD, you've been through this argument all before - only you were on the opposite side.

Why don't you recall all your spineless apologetics from then and explain it to yourself. Surely there's still a bit of FD 2007 left in there?

I changed my mind.

Isn’t that the very definition of spinelessness?

Just a question, FD.

So, FD's being, if you'll pardon the expression, crucified over a post in 2007?

Is there anything that might have occurred since that may have contributed to his 'change of mind', do you think?

The world has moved on.

But some constants remain. Apologies from Islam being one of them.

But we remain beleaguered. Is that not so?

Back to top

Toughen up, Australia!

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96369

Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #29 - Jul 28^th, 2014 at 7:47pm

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 28^th, 2014 at 6:59pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 28^th, 2014 at 6:11pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2014 at 1:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 11:11pm:

FD, you've been through this argument all before - only you were on the opposite side.

Why don't you recall all your spineless apologetics from then and explain it to yourself. Surely there's still a bit of FD 2007 left in there?

I changed my mind.

Isn’t that the very definition of spinelessness?

Just a question, FD.

So, FD's being, if you'll pardon the expression, crucified over a post in 2007?

Crucified? Good heavens, Lionel, you’re right. I never thought of it like that.

I apologize. I make no excuses for FD’s views. I merely recognize it is his right to create and unfortunately impose these views. It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticize them. I am neither a member of FD’s religion or a citizen of any of those nations.

Please forgive me.

Back to top

IP Logged