Australian Politics Forum - Does ISLAM - as a philosophy

Soren

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #60 - Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:32pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 11:02am:

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:39am:

I think Yadda has brought up an interesting issue here. There is a strong contrast between Islam and Christianity on this particular issue. Where Christianity preaches forgiveness, Islam preaches revenge and escalation of conflict. I think it is no accident that so many conflicts with Muslims get dragged on over the decades, and it is usually Muslims doing the dragging, from a position of military inferiority. I think even Gandalf has acknowledged the tendency for Muslims to falsely or unreasonably claim aggrieved status.

Of course, Christianity had its wars over centuries when it was either fighting advancing Islam, or itself.

Having fought Islamic nations to a standstill, Christianity ripped itself apart for a few hundred years with sectarian wars... Firstly Eastern and Western Christianity (the Great Schism - still split today), then Catholic-Protestant reformation/counter-reformation wars.

Although largely at peace with itself for the last 300 years, Christianity has remained an element of some modern wars in a cryptic sense (i.e. Northern Ireland), where its influence is closer to a 'cold war' effect.

Also, Neo-Christianity does involve itself in modern conflicts but, again, in a cryptic sense, with, for example, the support of Israel by neo-Christians for religious reasons as opposed to purely political reasons.

The salient point is that Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god, based on the principles of freedom and love.
Islam has no opportunity to evolve, it forever wants to press the "reset to the 7th century and start again" button. But the 7th century itself is strife between sunni and shia. There is no opportunity to depart and evolve since, supremely stupidly, Mohammed is the last prophet and the Koran is inerrant and entire.
Christianity has had its religious wars in the 17th century. Islam has been at war with itself - and never mind anyone else who comes into contact with it - since the day after Mohammed died.
No freedom, no love, no conversation - instead it is all-you-can-submit-to aggrievance and resentment.

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Karnal

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #61 - Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:38pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:20am:

freediver wrote on Aug 1^st, 2014 at 8:44am:

Quote:

Why? He hasn't insulted me.

Exactly. Gandalf, you are lucky Brian is not overseas, or he may not even realise you are talking about him.

Quote:

The only people who seem to be inflicting their political views on us are you and your ilk, FD.

How so?

You insist that your views on Muslims and Islam are the only acceptable ones. Roll Eyes

Quote:

All I've ever suggested is that people should be given a fair go.

At killing anyone who disagrees with them?

You really are working on your thatching skills, FD. Roll Eyes

Perhaps you'd like to provide a reference to where I have suggested that?

Quote:

Quote:

You OTOH want to prejudge them on the basis of what other people sharing the same religious name with them may have done. In otherwords, Guilt by Association. What ever happened to Freedom of Association in your world, FD?

They are free to associate with Muslims if they like, and I judge them by their words and deeds.

No, you don't. You continually show the reverse, FD. Roll Eyes

FD judges Muselmen for what they don’t say, what they would say, and what they won’t say, but FD needs to tweak ever so slightly to make them say it.

FD largely ignores their deeds, instead focusing on what they don’t, would or won’t say. We have an epidemic of clitorectomies, underage marriage and terrorism in Australia because of Muhammed, you know. Muslims everywhere are torturing Jews to get their gold. And it’s all hush-hush because of Taqiyya, a cunning ruse if ever there was one.

One of FD’s inspirations is the investigation style of the Khmer Rouge. Prisoners were guilty because they were prisoners. It was simply a matter of extracting a confession and taking them down to the swamp for the head hammering.

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Karnal

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #62 - Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:59pm

Soren wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 11:02am:

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:39am:

I think Yadda has brought up an interesting issue here. There is a strong contrast between Islam and Christianity on this particular issue. Where Christianity preaches forgiveness, Islam preaches revenge and escalation of conflict. I think it is no accident that so many conflicts with Muslims get dragged on over the decades, and it is usually Muslims doing the dragging, from a position of military inferiority. I think even Gandalf has acknowledged the tendency for Muslims to falsely or unreasonably claim aggrieved status.

Of course, Christianity had its wars over centuries when it was either fighting advancing Islam, or itself.

Having fought Islamic nations to a standstill, Christianity ripped itself apart for a few hundred years with sectarian wars... Firstly Eastern and Western Christianity (the Great Schism - still split today), then Catholic-Protestant reformation/counter-reformation wars.

Although largely at peace with itself for the last 300 years, Christianity has remained an element of some modern wars in a cryptic sense (i.e. Northern Ireland), where its influence is closer to a 'cold war' effect.

Also, Neo-Christianity does involve itself in modern conflicts but, again, in a cryptic sense, with, for example, the support of Israel by neo-Christians for religious reasons as opposed to purely political reasons.

The salient point is that Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god, based on the principles of freedom and love.

This explains why you turned to atheism, old boy. Good show.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #63 - Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 3:18pm

Soren wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 11:02am:

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:39am:

I think Yadda has brought up an interesting issue here. There is a strong contrast between Islam and Christianity on this particular issue. Where Christianity preaches forgiveness, Islam preaches revenge and escalation of conflict. I think it is no accident that so many conflicts with Muslims get dragged on over the decades, and it is usually Muslims doing the dragging, from a position of military inferiority. I think even Gandalf has acknowledged the tendency for Muslims to falsely or unreasonably claim aggrieved status.

Of course, Christianity had its wars over centuries when it was either fighting advancing Islam, or itself.

Having fought Islamic nations to a standstill, Christianity ripped itself apart for a few hundred years with sectarian wars... Firstly Eastern and Western Christianity (the Great Schism - still split today), then Catholic-Protestant reformation/counter-reformation wars.

Although largely at peace with itself for the last 300 years, Christianity has remained an element of some modern wars in a cryptic sense (i.e. Northern Ireland), where its influence is closer to a 'cold war' effect.

Also, Neo-Christianity does involve itself in modern conflicts but, again, in a cryptic sense, with, for example, the support of Israel by neo-Christians for religious reasons as opposed to purely political reasons.

The salient point is that Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god, based on the principles of freedom and love.

So, where do the churches fit into this "conversation"? Where does the clergy fit? Looks to me like you're mistaking the belief for the religion, Soren... Roll Eyes

BTW, you might want to read this, hopefully with an open mind but that might be a bit difficult, I realise... Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 4:32pm by Brian Ross »

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #64 - Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 3:28pm

Soren wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:32pm:

The salient point is that Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god, based on the principles of freedom and love.
Islam has no opportunity to evolve, it forever wants to press the "reset to the 7th century and start again" button. But the 7th century itself is strife between sunni and shia. There is no opportunity to depart and evolve since, supremely stupidly, Mohammed is the last prophet and the Koran is inerrant and entire.
Christianity has had its religious wars in the 17th century. Islam has been at war with itself - and never mind anyone else who comes into contact with it - since the day after Mohammed died.
No freedom, no love, no conversation - instead it is all-you-can-submit-to aggrievance and resentment.

Dunno that 'Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god'...

More that it is becoming irrelevant not least due to its ministers' dealings between man and boy!

Watched the movie 'Calvary'... Won't drop spoilers here except to say its an Irish observation (ignited by clergy atrocities) of 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' (to use the counter-reformation's metaphor against Martin Luther).

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Soren

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #65 - Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 9:18pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:59pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 11:02am:

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:39am:

I think Yadda has brought up an interesting issue here. There is a strong contrast between Islam and Christianity on this particular issue. Where Christianity preaches forgiveness, Islam preaches revenge and escalation of conflict. I think it is no accident that so many conflicts with Muslims get dragged on over the decades, and it is usually Muslims doing the dragging, from a position of military inferiority. I think even Gandalf has acknowledged the tendency for Muslims to falsely or unreasonably claim aggrieved status.

Of course, Christianity had its wars over centuries when it was either fighting advancing Islam, or itself.

Having fought Islamic nations to a standstill, Christianity ripped itself apart for a few hundred years with sectarian wars... Firstly Eastern and Western Christianity (the Great Schism - still split today), then Catholic-Protestant reformation/counter-reformation wars.

Although largely at peace with itself for the last 300 years, Christianity has remained an element of some modern wars in a cryptic sense (i.e. Northern Ireland), where its influence is closer to a 'cold war' effect.

Also, Neo-Christianity does involve itself in modern conflicts but, again, in a cryptic sense, with, for example, the support of Israel by neo-Christians for religious reasons as opposed to purely political reasons.

The salient point is that Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god, based on the principles of freedom and love.

This explains why you turned to atheism, old boy. Good show.

How and when did I turn to atheism, Greens_Win?

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Soren

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #66 - Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 9:21pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 3:28pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:32pm:

The salient point is that Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god, based on the principles of freedom and love.
Islam has no opportunity to evolve, it forever wants to press the "reset to the 7th century and start again" button. But the 7th century itself is strife between sunni and shia. There is no opportunity to depart and evolve since, supremely stupidly, Mohammed is the last prophet and the Koran is inerrant and entire.
Christianity has had its religious wars in the 17th century. Islam has been at war with itself - and never mind anyone else who comes into contact with it - since the day after Mohammed died.
No freedom, no love, no conversation - instead it is all-you-can-submit-to aggrievance and resentment.

Dunno that 'Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god'...

More that it is becoming irrelevant not least due to its ministers' dealings between man and boy!

Watched the movie 'Calvary'... Won't drop spoilers here except to say its an Irish observation (ignited by clergy atrocities) of 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' (to use the counter-reformation's metaphor against Martin Luther).

Christianity is not becoming irrelevant in the world, even if it is becoming irrelevant to you.
Big mistake to treat the latter as if it was also an indicator of the former.

It is also a big mistake to be a narrowly Irish resenter of Irish Catholicism and to treat that sentimement as the sentiment of the world.

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Soren

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #67 - Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 9:23pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 3:18pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 11:02am:

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:39am:

I think Yadda has brought up an interesting issue here. There is a strong contrast between Islam and Christianity on this particular issue. Where Christianity preaches forgiveness, Islam preaches revenge and escalation of conflict. I think it is no accident that so many conflicts with Muslims get dragged on over the decades, and it is usually Muslims doing the dragging, from a position of military inferiority. I think even Gandalf has acknowledged the tendency for Muslims to falsely or unreasonably claim aggrieved status.

Of course, Christianity had its wars over centuries when it was either fighting advancing Islam, or itself.

Having fought Islamic nations to a standstill, Christianity ripped itself apart for a few hundred years with sectarian wars... Firstly Eastern and Western Christianity (the Great Schism - still split today), then Catholic-Protestant reformation/counter-reformation wars.

Although largely at peace with itself for the last 300 years, Christianity has remained an element of some modern wars in a cryptic sense (i.e. Northern Ireland), where its influence is closer to a 'cold war' effect.

Also, Neo-Christianity does involve itself in modern conflicts but, again, in a cryptic sense, with, for example, the support of Israel by neo-Christians for religious reasons as opposed to purely political reasons.

The salient point is that Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god, based on the principles of freedom and love.

So, where do the churches fit into this "conversation"?

If you had even a cursory understanding, you would know that Protestantism is about faith and a relationship unmediated by clergy/priestly class.

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Yadda

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #68 - Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 10:31pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 3:28pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:32pm:

The salient point is that Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god, based on the principles of freedom and love.
Islam has no opportunity to evolve, it forever wants to press the "reset to the 7th century and start again" button. But the 7th century itself is strife between sunni and shia. There is no opportunity to depart and evolve since, supremely stupidly, Mohammed is the last prophet and the Koran is inerrant and entire.
Christianity has had its religious wars in the 17th century. Islam has been at war with itself - and never mind anyone else who comes into contact with it - since the day after Mohammed died.
No freedom, no love, no conversation - instead it is all-you-can-submit-to aggrievance and resentment.

Dunno that 'Christianity is evolving because it is essentially about a conversation between man and god'...

More that it is becoming irrelevant not least due to its ministers' dealings between man and boy!

Watched the movie 'Calvary'... Won't drop spoilers here except to say its an Irish observation (ignited by clergy atrocities) of 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' (to use the counter-reformation's metaphor against Martin Luther).

'Faith' is not irrelevant, especially not today, in today's world.

But Christians don't read the bible these days.

They should.

Christians today, are more interested in integrating their faith, with 'society', and with societies values.

God ?

God does not touch our hearts today, .....because most of us are running away from God, at a million miles an hour!

Never old.

IMAGE....
i

Psalms 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psalms 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalms 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

Amos 5:4
For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

'Israel' is a state of mind.

We are Israel, if we want to be so.

But the world does not want to be.

Psalms 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved' Reply #69 - Aug 4^th, 2014 at 1:26pm OMG! Yadda's again quoting from the Old Testament! That, according to Soren and other Christian fundamentalists brands him as a non-Christian! He places more emphasis on the Old Testament than the New! Heretic!
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moses

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #70 - Aug 4^th, 2014 at 2:21pm

Does islam - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved' ?

Once again the proof is in the pudding:

In 2014 we have muslims torturing and killing Buddhists, Christians, Hindus and Jews, while always claiming they are the victims of non-muslims.

Then we have muslims slaughtering other muslims, with both sides claiming to be the victims.

muslims by their deeds prove they are the victims of their own inbred low intelligence and the doctrine of rape, torture and mass murder (islam).

They are the world's largest cult of killers.

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Adamant

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #71 - Aug 4^th, 2014 at 3:57pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 3:18pm:

BTW, you might want to read this, hopefully with an open mind but that might be a bit difficult, I realise...

Edited out stupid face.

Did you read this Brian.

The acknowledgement "with varying degrees of criticism or emulation", of the technological, scientific and legal achievements of the West,

Also.....

Taking the four traditional sources of Islamic jurisprudence—the Quran, the reported deed and saying of Muhammad (hadith), consensus of the theologians (ijma) and juristic reasoning by analogy (qiyas) -- and reinterpreting

Then this, Saladin will be devastated!

A more or less radical (re)interpretation of the authoritative sources. This is particularly the case with the Quranic texts on polygyny, the hadd (penal) punishments, jihad, and treatment of unbelievers, which conflict with "modern" views.

You have just proved that Mo was not a prophet, that the quran is not the immutable word of god. Islam is just a cult.

Do you stick up for cults Brian?

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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49266 At my desk.	Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved' Reply #72 - Aug 4^th, 2014 at 4:04pm Brian is not actually a fan of Islam, merely of the right of Muslims to hack people to death in the name of Islam. If you really press him, he will say it is as bad as other religions.
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Brian Ross

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #73 - Aug 4^th, 2014 at 6:13pm

Soren wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 9:23pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 3:18pm:

So, where do the churches fit into this "conversation"?

If you had even a cursory understanding, you would know that Protestantism is about faith and a relationship unmediated by clergy/priestly class.

But as anybody with any understanding of Christianity realises, Soren, Protestantism isn't the be all and end all of Christianity. There are other denominations which out number it and of course, we can point out there are few Christian denominations which don't have clergy and established Churches which form the structure of organised religion. You seem to have a very myopic view of what Christianity is, Soren. Time you pulled your head out of the sand and looked around. Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc., etc. exist and they ARE the majority of Christians. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Does ISLAM - as a philosophy - produce 'aggrieved'
Reply #74 - Aug 4^th, 2014 at 6:14pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2014 at 12:38pm:

FD judges Muselmen for what they don’t say, what they would say, and what they won’t say, but FD needs to tweak ever so slightly to make them say it.

FD largely ignores their deeds, instead focusing on what they don’t, would or won’t say. We have an epidemic of clitorectomies, underage marriage and terrorism in Australia because of Muhammed, you know. Muslims everywhere are torturing Jews to get their gold. And it’s all hush-hush because of Taqiyya, a cunning ruse if ever there was one.

One of FD’s inspirations is the investigation style of the Khmer Rouge. Prisoners were guilty because they were prisoners. It was simply a matter of extracting a confession and taking them down to the swamp for the head hammering.

Ah. That explains so much. Thank'ee Karnal for your apt explanation. Cool

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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