Good ol' grendel - as always bringing a calm, sane and rational voice to the discussion.

Once more with feeling - this is what mainstream media is saying...

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 5:03pm:


Ignore and obfuscate this reality with all the red herrings you like - nothing you have presented even remotely suggests that Hamas is civilians to stay in the line of fire - like the Israelis are claiming with no evidence.

Note how FD in typical style expertly diverts the discussion away from the actual topic:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 11:31am:

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:43am:


Or even "too scared" to address the issue of Palestinian's rights?

Israel could annex all the Palestinian territories and grant all the residents citizenship and Israeli rights tomorrow. But they won't for the obvious demographic issue this would create for "the jewish state".

The next best thing would be to transition the territories to full autonomy, paving the way for them to declare their own sovereign state. However this is totally unviable because of the continued expansion of the WB settlements, whose municipal and regional boundaries become sovereing Israeli territory, and which carves up the WB into discontiguous bantustans. This has been happening during the time in which the WB Palestinian government has renounced violence and been patiently sitting at the negotiating table in good faith.

This is the reality that Palestinian nationalists face: if they do the "right" thing by Israel and the US, they are rewarded with Israel spitting in their face. In renouncing violence and patiently negotiating in good faith, the PA under Abbas has been a God-send for the Israeli right, who have utterly violated the Palestinian trust and gooddwill.

Hamas rockets represents the sole remaining method of Palestinian violent resistance to Israel's systematic destruction of Palestinian rights, and therefore represents something of a thorn in Israel's side. A small thorn, but a thorn nonetheless. For Israel, the focus is not on Gaza, but the West Bank, which is the only place the Palestinians can hope for a viable state. Israel is hell bent on creating as many "facts on the grounds" before an inevitable "settlement" on the issue of Palestinian statehood is reached. So what about Gaza? For Israel, the strategy is to maintain the status quo - keep Hamas (who are doing a great job of demonizing the Palestinians) ranting and raving, but don't let them get out of hand. Hence the periodical "mowing down" that Israel has resigned itself to. Thus the status quo is achieved, and Israel can continue with it settlement project in the WB.

I'm not saying its a strategy that will work in the long run - I anticipate it won't, but it does seem to me a reasonable assessment of what the Israelis are doing.

Yes I am calm, sane and rational....
You on the otherhand are in total denial and keep lying...  Why is that?

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I often think you are just joking, but then, to my amazement, it turns out you are serious. This is not an unfamiliar experience. Would you care to elaborate on your hollywood alien monster theory of Palestinian military supremacy? Perhaps the sleeping giant analogy would be more appropriate?

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Hamas are scum. That is what this debate comes down to. I'll throw references to Islam in there as well, seeing as it obviously plays a role.

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Ironically enough, millions of Jews fled to Israel because the Arabs did exactly that.

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It's a bit difficult to address the rights of people who are lobbing rockets at you as fast as they can get their hands on them.

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Do you think Israel should be obligued to? It is not merely a demographic problem. It's a bit silly to incorporate a group of people into your state who are ideologically dedicated to the destruction of that state. Even if it was 90% Muslims and run by Muslims, they would go on killing people just because it was called Israel.

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Is Gaza sovereign at the moment?

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They are rewarded with international sympathy and demands for Israel to treat them fairly.

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In other words, unlike Israel, Hamas does use violence to the extent it is capable of. It practices no restraint, for any reason. Just because it is your only violent option does not mean it is a good idea.

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They are a thorn in Israel's side, and a cause of endless misery and suffering to the Palestinians. You'd have to be pretty demented to rationalise a choice like that.

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Why not Gaza? Because Hamas are such scum?

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And yet there are many Muslims preaching the prolonging of the violence on the grounds of the inevitable Muslim victory.

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Because they are scum who hide behind their mothers skirts to fire rockets at Israel, then capitalise politically on the suffering they create?

Not just the Palestinians, but foreign Muslims also - people like Falah.

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Do you support the theory (posted elsewhere on this forum recently) that Hamas are Israeli stooges? You keep inching closer and closer towards it. Or are you just denying any responsibility for Hamas on the part of the Palestinians?

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Perhaps it is not even a strategy - merely Israel choosing the best of a bad set of options. Israel does not fear the destruction of Hamas as you suggest. They merely cannot accept the humanitarian cost of getting rid of them.

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You are yet to demonstrate that it is incorrect.

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Are you seriously suggesting there would be fewer rocket attacks if Israel did not return fire? How gullible do you think we are? Your figures don't prove poo.

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The more rockets Hamas lobs at Israel, the more Palestinian casualties the world will tolerate. The world would not force Israel to stop dropping the bombs on Gaza unless we start dropping our own bombs instead. We would have to send in some kind of peacekeeping force, and inevitably that force would be turning it's guns on the Palestinians, with the exact same results.

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There have been some very successful campaigns against oppression over the last century that did not rely on violent overthrow - eg Gandhi and Mandela. The Palestinians have the attention of the global community far more than they did, and Israel is sensitive to international opinion. It looks a lot more sensible than Hamas at the moment. Something like this should have happened by now. The only reason it hasn't is because too many Muslims do not want it to happen. We have seen some of those Muslims and their cold, retarded logic right here on this forum. You are right that the constant conflict permits Israel to get away with far more than it otherwise would. You are merely wrong to suggest the "evil Joos" are somehow orchestrating it all, or choosing it. They are merely making the best of a bad situation. Their retaliations against Hamas are the most they are prepared to throw at them, given the humanitarian consequences - not because of some sleeping giant they are afraid to awaken.

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Why did this trip my Taqiyya detectors Gandalf? Have they accepted the actual resolution? Have they discarded their charter demanding the destruction of Israel?

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If Hamas stopped firing rockets from Gaza, there would be a functioning state there within a few years, regardless of everything else. There already is a functioning state. It is only dysfunctional to the extent that they throw all their spare resources at Israel.

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Not to the point that it becomes utterly self defeating. You have to add Islam to get that.

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Have the Israelis ever voted into power a party whose charter calls for this? Some extremist Israelis say these things. The Palestinians actually try to do it, at every opportunity. Their impotence should not be mistaken for benign intent. What is scary about the Muslim rhetoric is not merely the support for violence, but the complete rejection of reality. Falah for example did not merely claim that the Palestinians should destroy Israel. He claimed that they will - that a glorious Muslim military victory is just around the corner. It is only because of such stupidity that the Hamas can get away with dragging the conflict out, to the detriment and ongoing misery of the Palestinians. It is not just the evil intent, but the sheer stupidity.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:


Apart from the figures that show rockets spiking during Isreali attacks - with ever increasing spikes during each subsequent attack - sure, not at all.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:


I'm seriously suggesting that truces and negotiations have proven to be the best deterrent to rockets - not Isreali incursions.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:


The US - Isreal's chief enabler - is getting increasingly hesitant at every new attack. They are also starting to become less limp wristed in the language they use over the settlements. It wouldn't take much - just a hint of wavering by the US, and the next Isreali incursion will be drastically scaled back, if not cancelled altogether. This is arguably forseeable in the near future.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:


Yet the Palestinians on the West Bank haven't stopped anything - they have been non-violent for at least 10 years now. Peaceful protests happen on a daily basis on the WB - thats the sort of "successful campaign" you are advocating - yet even though it *HAS* been happening, the settlements just continue to be rolled out, and the Palestinian state continues to be blocked. And we're talking about permanent facts on the ground - once the settlements are there, they suddenly become non-negotiable. So this idea of a "wait it out" passive protest by the Palestinians is just a cruel joke - seeing time is not on their side.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:


The Isrealis are 100% orchestrating and choosing the expansion of the settlements - the one thing that will ensure no viable Palestinian state will ever be created. Even if Isreal is as hamstrung as you suggest by Palestinian violence, there is not an argument in the world which says that the continued settlement expansions are therefore justified. Incursions, bombings, arrests - yes, but not this blatant rush to create facts on the ground.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:


Because as usual you are not interested in anything that deviates from your "garr muslims" world view. It is, nontheless, common knowledge, and has been canvassed by Hamas several times in the last decade:

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5016012.stm

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:


Rubbish - the Tamil Tigers proves that oppressed people don't have to be muslims to create an utterly self-defeating resistance group.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:


There are a few current government ministers on record calling for genocide in the past couple of months. But it could be argued that the side who has all the advanced precision weaponry has no need of such talk - and can achieve their goals far more efficiently without resorting to it.