Australian Politics Forum - About those alleged "human shields" in gaza

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49347
At my desk.

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #180 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:22pm

Quote:

Apart from the figures that show rockets spiking during Isreali attacks - with ever increasing spikes during each subsequent attack - sure, not at all.

Not sure how you are interpreting them, but whatever conclusions you are drawing are unjustified.

Quote:

I'm seriously suggesting that truces and negotiations have proven to be the best deterrent to rockets - not Isreali incursions.

This is an oversimplification. You cannot have truces without the incursions. They would be meaningless.

Quote:

The US - Isreal's chief enabler - is getting increasingly hesitant at every new attack. They are also starting to become less limp wristed in the language they use over the settlements. It wouldn't take much - just a hint of wavering by the US, and the next Isreali incursion will be drastically scaled back, if not cancelled altogether. This is arguably forseeable in the near future.

And then what?

Quote:

Yet the Palestinians on the West Bank haven't stopped anything - they have been non-violent for at least 10 years now. Peaceful protests happen on a daily basis on the WB - thats the sort of "successful campaign" you are advocating - yet even though it *HAS* been happening, the settlements just continue to be rolled out, and the Palestinian state continues to be blocked. And we're talking about permanent facts on the ground - once the settlements are there, they suddenly become non-negotiable. So this idea of a "wait it out" passive protest by the Palestinians is just a cruel joke - seeing time is not on their side.

You have already acknowledge that Hamas is undermining those efforts by being such scum. Do you think Palestinians on the WB are better off in the short term for it?

Quote:

Because as usual you are not interested in anything that deviates from your "garr muslims" world view. It is, nontheless, common knowledge, and has been canvassed by Hamas several times in the last decade:

Has Hamas dropped it's charter of destroying Israel yet?

Quote:

There are a few current government ministers on record calling for genocide in the past couple of months. But it could be argued that the side who has all the advanced precision weaponry has no need of such talk - and can achieve their goals far more efficiently without resorting to it.

Like chain dragging the whole strip?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #181 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 8:21pm

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

Not sure how you are interpreting them, but whatever conclusions you are drawing are unjustified.

Its actually quite easy FD - I look at the number of rockets during each attack and notice that the rate of launches are increasing - as are the sophistication of the rockets. Its about rockets, but its really not rocket science.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

This is an oversimplification. You cannot have truces without the incursions. They would be meaningless.

And yet exactly that happened in 2008 - the most successful truce in the history of Gaza rocket attacks. Hamas cooperated because Isreal agreed to some concessions for easing the blockade. Hopes were high - that is until Israel went and broke the ceasefire - culminating in Operation Cast Lead.

Hamas has recently released a 10 point condition for a 10 year truce. Nothing outrageous really - just things like withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the border, easing access to the Al Aqsa mosque, allowing the recreation of an industrial zone and other economic improvements, and of course lifting the blockade.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

And then what?

Who knows? Maybe (shock horror) Israel might finally be forced to address the issue of Palestinian rights and start playing ball on a viable future Palestinian state.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

You have already acknowledge that Hamas is undermining those efforts by being such scum. Do you think Palestinians on the WB are better off in the short term for it?

No doubt - but so what? This is not a short term game - the only side that benefits long term in the current game is Israel. While WB Palestinians are being "nice" and maybe getting some sympathy from the international community, settlements are continuing to be built.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:22pm:

Has Hamas dropped it's charter of destroying Israel yet?

No, but what I said is not a lie as you suggested.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49347
At my desk.

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #182 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:18pm

Quote:

Its actually quite easy FD - I look at the number of rockets during each attack and notice that the rate of launches are increasing - as are the sophistication of the rockets. Its about rockets, but its really not rocket science.

Yes I expected it was that simplistic, and that wrong.

Quote:

Hamas has recently released a 10 point condition for a 10 year truce. Nothing outrageous really - just things like withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the border, easing access to the Al Aqsa mosque, allowing the recreation of an industrial zone and other economic improvements, and of course lifting the blockade.

Has Hamas agreed to drop it's charter of destroying Israel in response? Or is this a comically transparent attempt to build up enough strength to do a bit more damage to Israel in 10 years time?

Quote:

No doubt - but so what?

I just wanted you to concede that Hamas are scum. Will you also concede that they are capitalising politically on the suffering of the Palestinian people? And hiding behind their mothers skirts?

Quote:

This is not a short term game - the only side that benefits long term in the current game is Israel.

Well I'm glad you don't share Falah's delusions. I was getting worried.

Quote:

No, but what I said is not a lie as you suggested.

Is it deception? I always get confused when Muslims try to distinguish lies from deception from propaganda from Taqiyya etc. How does Hamas accepting the "principle" of the resolution differ from Hamas accepting the actual resolution? Just that they get to pick and choose their own principles from what is intended to be a pragmatic and detailed statement? Perhaps you intended the claim with a touch of irony that went over my head. If so I apologise for jumping to conclusions.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Grendel

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #183 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 10:13pm

One more time for the Uber Denialist who refuses to face the truth.

Grendel wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 4:27pm:

Grendel wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 3:54pm:

Ordering...?
you are basing your argument on the word ordering?

I am basing it on Israel's actual claim - namely...

Quote:

Israel also claimed that Hamas had forced civilians to remain

Well I'm basing my claims on facts and independent news sources all those things you apparently see fit to deny.

You may think you can ignore the facts but people will keep posting them. Roll Eyes

Back to top

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #184 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 12:22am

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:18pm:

Yes I expected it was that simplistic, and that wrong.

It is very simple. Before I presented the figures you tried to deny them - now I don't even know what you are trying to deny now.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:18pm:

Has Hamas agreed to drop it's charter of destroying Israel in response? Or is this a comically transparent attempt to build up enough strength to do a bit more damage to Israel in 10 years time?

No they have not. I know its spineless apologetics to you, but I view these sort of blustering pledges of the destruction of their opponent by groups like Hamas who emerge in the midst of oppression and occupation as entirely normal, and shouldn't necessarily be seen as an obstacle to sitting down with them.

You say Hamas must tone down their stance - realistically this can't be expected as long as the occupation and oppression isn't toned down.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:18pm:

Will you also concede that they are capitalising politically on the suffering of the Palestinian people?

Of course they are - which is entirely to be expected of such a group. And no, it is not a muslim thing, it is an occupation and oppression thing. Just like the oppressors are capitalising on the propaganda value of Hamas, by ensuring that their occupation and oppression is not seriously challenged.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:18pm:

How does Hamas accepting the "principle" of the resolution differ from Hamas accepting the actual resolution? Just that they get to pick and choose their own principles from what is intended to be a pragmatic and detailed statement?

They have proposed a truce based on complete withdrawal from the occupied territories. Resolution 242 calls for the withdrawal as just the starting point for a settlement. So yes, this is accepting the principle of 242. Israel on the other hand rejects it out of hand.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #185 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 12:28am

aww poor grendel - not getting enough attention.

Grendel wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:47pm:

Well I'm basing my claims on facts and independent news sources all those things you apparently see fit to deny.

I don't deny the facts and sources you present - its just that they are not the evidence you think they are.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49347
At my desk.

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #186 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:56pm

Quote:

It is very simple. Before I presented the figures you tried to deny them - now I don't even know what you are trying to deny now.

This is not some kind of experiment where you water a plant and see how it grows. Both sides are constantly trying to second guess each other and adopt corresponding strategies. Yet you analyse it as if it were the former.

Quote:

No they have not. I know its spineless apologetics to you, but I view these sort of blustering pledges of the destruction of their opponent by groups like Hamas who emerge in the midst of oppression and occupation as entirely normal, and shouldn't necessarily be seen as an obstacle to sitting down with them.

Unless of course you are the one expected to give a leg up to the people who vow to destroy you and who appear to have every intention of following through with it at their earliest convenience, and who see a truce as an opportunity to scale up the next attack.

Quote:

You say Hamas must tone down their stance - realistically this can't be expected as long as the occupation and oppression isn't toned down.

Actually I think stopping the rockets is more important than changing their charter. That is even harder to ignore. But even if they do adopt a more peaceful strategy in the short term, it will mean little if it is undermined by a charter calling for the destruction of Israel.

Quote:

They have proposed a truce based on complete withdrawal from the occupied territories. Resolution 242 calls for the withdrawal as just the starting point for a settlement.

So they proposed a truce that was more generous to Israel, or more generous to themselves?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

chicken_lipsforme

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 7090
Townsville NQ
Gender: male

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #187 - Aug 17^th, 2014 at 1:52pm

Quote:

You say Hamas must tone down their stance - realistically this can't be expected as long as the occupation and oppression isn't toned down.

For years before the Gaza walls were built, Hamas and their sidekicks were getting their jollies throwing hand grenades into seaside cafes full of Jewish tourists, or stopping yellow school buses and machine gunning the occupants which happened to be Jewish children or just raiding a kibbutz and killing the farmers.
Their actions today have little to do with 'occupation and oppression', and everything to do with killing Jews and the restrictions placed upon them by Israel.
And nothing but the total extermination of the Jews and the Jewish state will satisfy them.

Back to top

"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21872
A cat with a view

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #188 - Aug 21^st, 2014 at 10:00pm

Yadda paraphrases.....
HAMAS HAVE THE WELFARE OF GAZANS AT HEART, THATS WHY THE GAZAN'S ELECTED HAMAS.....

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 10:55am:

Palestinians elected Hamas because they implemented programs for healthcare, education and other basic essentials, even with their limited resources. The overwhelming majority of their budget was used for these. That's why Palestinians supported Hamas.

Yadda paraphrases.....
WHEN THE CONFLICT WITH ISRAEL COMMENCED, THERE WAS NOWHERE WHERE THE GAZAN CIVILIANS COULD GO, THERE WERE NO PURPOSE BUILT SHELTERS - BUT THE ISRAELIS CHOSE TO BOMB THE GAZAN CIVILIANS ANYWAY!

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 12:01pm:

The human shields argument is bullshit. There is nowhere in Gaza that isn't densely populated, which is why there are such high civilian casualties. I get that it works both ways - if Hamas can't avoid drawing power to densely populated areas, Israel can't avoid hitting densely populated areas.

AN ALTERNATIVE REALITY....

THE HAMAS TUNNELS COULD HAVE BEEN BUILT - AWAY FROM THE BORDER WITH ISRAEL - AND, SO AS TO BE USED TO SHELTER GAZAN CIVILIANS FROM BOMBARDMENT

BUT THE GAZAN CIVILIANS WERE FORBIDDEN FROM USING THE EXTENSIVE NETWORK OF TUNNELS WHICH HAMAS BUILT [WHICH ALL LED TO THE BORDER AREAS WITH ISRAEL]

Quote:

Some Concrete Facts About Hamas

Guess how many skyscrapers the terror organization could’ve built instead of tunnels
By Liel Leibovitz|July 23, 2014

Israeli troops entering Gaza last week have so far uncovered 18 tunnels used by Hamas to send armed terrorists into Israel and built using an estimated 800,000 tons of concrete.

What else might that much concrete build? Erecting Dubai’s Burj Khalifa, the world’s tallest tower, required 110,000 tons of concrete. Hamas, then, could’ve treated itself to seven such monstrosities and still had a few tens of thousands of tons to spare.

If it wanted to build kindergartens equipped with bomb shelters, like Israel has built for the besieged citizens of Sderot, for example—after all, noted military strategists like Jon Stewart have spent last week proclaiming that Gaza’s citizens had nowhere to hide from Israel’s artillery—Hamas could have used its leftovers to whip up about two that were each as big as Giants Stadium.

And that’s just 18 tunnels.

Egypt, on its end, recently claimed to have destroyed an additional 1,370 [tunnels]. That’s a lot of concrete....

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/180007/concrete-facts-about-ha...

COMMENT AT ARTICLE LINK....
Quote:

Alex Bensky · Top Commenter · University of Michigan Law School

Deep, solidly built, ideal shelters for the civilian population...who are forbidden from using them for that purpose.

COMMENT BY Yadda...

Apologists for Hamas do make the most outrageous and ludicrous claims, to justify their loyalty to it.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49347
At my desk.

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #189 - Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 5:37pm

There is an interesting article in today's Australian claiming that something like 95% of Israelis support the recent military intervention. It contrasted this with previous interventions that divided Israeli society and brought out protestors. It credits the cause of this to the 'psychological success' of Hamas's rocket attacks. To put it simply, the Israelis are fed up.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96367

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #190 - Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 5:45pm

freediver wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 5:37pm:

There is an interesting article in today's Australian claiming that something like 95% of Israelis support the recent military intervention. It contrasted this with previous interventions that divided Israeli society and brought out protestors. It credits the cause of this to the 'psychological success' of Hamas's rocket attacks. To put it simply, the Israelis are fed up.

Out of interest, who wrote the article, FD?

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49347 At my desk.	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #191 - Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 5:47pm No idea. I left the paper at work. It was in the world section.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #192 - Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 9:05pm http://www.vox.com/2014/7/31/5955077/israeli-support-for-the-gaza-war-is-basical... worth noting that arab-Israelis were excluded.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #193 - Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 9:23pm

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 1:52pm:

Quote:

You say Hamas must tone down their stance - realistically this can't be expected as long as the occupation and oppression isn't toned down.

For years before the Gaza walls were built, Hamas and their sidekicks were getting their jollies throwing hand grenades into seaside cafes full of Jewish tourists, or stopping yellow school buses and machine gunning the occupants which happened to be Jewish children or just raiding a kibbutz and killing the farmers.
Their actions today have little to do with 'occupation and oppression', and everything to do with killing Jews and the restrictions placed upon them by Israel.
And nothing but the total extermination of the Jews and the Jewish state will satisfy them.

Alf (Alf Gand) ignored this - a sure sign it' s true.
Isn't it Alfie?
Wassit all about, Alfie? Killing da Jews. It's in the Hamas manifesto.
Just imagine an organization with a manifesto to eradicate all Muslim Arabs. Financed and supported and armed by various states. Just imagine.

Back to top

IP Logged