Australian Politics Forum - About those alleged "human shields" in gaza

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #30 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 2:57pm Data I am intrigued by people continually coming up with the allegation and not providing a shred of evidence. I suppose you could always go the FD route and counter this most fundamental point with endless pages of obfuscation, until the original point is lost.
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Datalife

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #31 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 3:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 2:57pm:

Data I am intrigued by people continually coming up with the allegation and not providing a shred of evidence.

I suppose you could always go the FD route and counter this most fundamental point with endless pages of obfuscation, until the original point is lost.

Go whatever route you like, I care not, neither one reflects well on you.

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wally1 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2055 Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #32 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 3:21pm
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #33 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 3:25pm Datalife wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 3:03pm: Go whatever route you like, I care not, neither one reflects well on you. Pointing out that the human shield claim has no shred of evidence doesn't reflect well on me? I see..
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freediver

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #34 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 4:19pm

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Dear Freediver, have you ever thought that Hamas has gone crazy

Yes

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after

I suspect they were crazy to begin with.

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No, I am not proving anything. The point is about what Israel is claiming ad-nauseum (that hamas uses human shields) - which they have no evidence for.

It is pretty much common knowledge. I hope you have not also deluded yourself into thinking that hamas has survived in a military capacity despite taking on the Israeli army directly. All it takes is for you to think for yourself. It takes a rather convoluted conspiracy to come up with an alternative explanation.

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The incident reveals nothing whatsoever regarding whether or not the rocket was fired from a densely populated area.

So what? They went to a farm and hid behind the farm house to shoot it, and accidentally shot it into the farm house?

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Pure conjecture.

Crap. Hamas is outgunned, and hopelessly so.

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An honest appraisal of this would acknowledge that armed resistance is a natural and inevitable consequence of walling people in and enforcing an economically crippling blockade.

A consequence, or a cause? You are making the same logical fallacy as Annie - that because Hamas are hopeless losers they must be the victims.

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Hamas clearly firing rockets behind children's skirts in the middle of densely populated neighbourhoods:

The first one is clearly a staged photoshoot. The second one looks like a stock Russian army photo.

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I am intrigued by this gandalf, are you sincere in your belief that Hamas does not use monuments, churches, schools and hospitals for protection, knowing that the result will mean non combatant fatalities, ( which incidentally for Hamas is an entirely rational act) that achieves multiple aims or are you acting as a propagandist?

You have to be particularly dedicated to self delusion to conclude that Hamas do not hide behind their mother's skirts. It also helps if you can google a few staged photoshoots to show what brave soldiers Hamas are, taking on the might of the Israeli army from the cover of only trees.

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Data I am intrigued by people continually coming up with the allegation and not providing a shred of evidence.

It is common knowldge, and well established. I think it should be up to you to demonstrate the opposite, unless of course you only point in this thread is your inability to figure out the obvious for yourself.

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Pointing out that the human shield claim has no shred of evidence doesn't reflect well on me?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence of evidence of evidence, merely of your willingness to not bother informing yourself before starting another misleading thread of Islamic propaganda.

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #35 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 6:08pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 10:45am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:55am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:31am:

Chicken lips - do you think the civilian casualties are justified? You and I have had sensible talks about sensitive topics before, so I hope you know I am not baiting you. I'm generally interested to know if you think these deaths are okay.

I know you are not baiting me Annie, and I never would have thought so.
The civilian casualties are never ever justified, however I am increasingly saddened by the total inevitability of the situation.
The moment Hamas started firing long range rockets into Israel the week before invasion reaching northern cities and towns left the Israeli's with no choice whatsoever other than to go in to Gaza to destroy Hamas.
Hamas is sworn to the killing of Jews and the total destruction of Israel, meaning there is no room left for negotiation.
They simply want the Jews dead.
The Israeli Jews are under no illusion that should Hamas prevail, the world will sit back and witness another Holocaust, and the Israeli's truly believe they can expect no assistance from the UN in this case and can only count on themselves to protect their people.
And Israel can have a ceasefire for as long as they like as many times as they like, Hamas will continue to attack regardless.
Israel wants to meet peace with peace, however is prepared to meet war with war.
And the mixture of total urban warfare coupled with Hamas being totally ingratiated into Palestinian society having no soldiers barracks to live in, means there will be automatically increased civilian casualties despite any attempt by the Israeli's to minimise casualties through various means.
Hamas has been found time and time again to be using schools, hospitals and areas close to UN buildings to launch attacks into Israel making them legitimate targets of war.
The UN has been found to be good at talking but dreadfully poor in action.
Logic would suggest the Bluecaps should be kept in Gaza to keep the terrorists in check, however the experience in southern Lebanon before the 2006 invasion against Hezbollah demonstrated the UN's total incapability in stopping the terrorists ability to re-arm themselves as we saw.
The Bluecaps were left cowering in their barracks in fear for their lives leaving the terrorists to go about their business, and we could expect the same in Gaza should foreign troops ever be stationed there.
Hamas pushed the Israeli's too far this time, and the Israeli government and IDF are now totally committed to ripping out Hamas from Palestinian society 'root and branch'.
This can only mean one thing.
More civilian casualties.

Thank you for that. I appreciate it. I think we both know that we have differing views on this conflict, but I agree about the increasing inevitability of yet more tragedy and how deeply saddening it is. I don't even know what's happening anymore - I can't bear to watch the news.

May it be over as soon as possible. Another point on which I'm sure we agree

We do Annie.

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chicken_lipsforme Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7090 Townsville NQ Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #36 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 6:10pm wally1 wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 3:21pm: http://i.imgur.com/YyEPEIQ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/YgMJ1Ik.jpg http://i.imgur.com/PmcdP0z.jpg More sci fi from Wally.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #37 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 6:52pm

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 4:19pm:

It is pretty much common knowledge.

Yes thats the problem. I'm sure we could both rattle off a list of at least a dozen "common knowledge" slanders about Israel that we would both dispute.

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 4:19pm:

I hope you have not also deluded yourself into thinking that hamas has survived in a military capacity despite taking on the Israeli army directly.

Hamas - military capacity? Now there's a laugh.

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 4:19pm:

So what? They went to a farm and hid behind the farm house to shoot it, and accidentally shot it into the farm house?

You don't need to hide behind the farm house to accidentally hit the farm house. For all we know the rocket travelled for miles before coming down - the only thing we know is that it fell short of Israel. How far it actually travelled is not mentioned.

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 4:19pm:

A consequence, or a cause? You are making the same logical fallacy as Annie

And you are having the same inability to understand a historical timeline as Soren.

Wall completed around Gaza - 1996
First rockets fired from Gaza - 2001

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 4:19pm:

You have to be particularly dedicated to self delusion to conclude that Hamas do not hide behind their mother's skirts. It also helps if you can google a few staged photoshoots to show what brave soldiers Hamas are, taking on the might of the Israeli army from the cover of only trees.

Ok, reality check - in case you haven't noticed these firecrackers are pretty small - like very maneuverable small. Isn't it conceivable that they can fire a rocket or two from a relatively open space, and then pack them up and hide them before Israel has a chance to pinpoint where it came from?

Besides, the human shield claim isn't just the firing-rockets-from-busy-neighbourhoods allegation, its also that Hamas is forcing civilians to stay in the firing line. This is directly refuted by independent reporting referenced earlier. Thus the Israel government has form, and any honest and objective observer should be taking anything they say about the evil practices of Hamas with a grain of salt.

The human shield claim should be seen first and fore-mostly as a piece of propaganda that greatly benefits the Israeli attack. Anyone who doesn't consider this, and thinks that such an allegation that is so beneficial for Israeli propaganda is just "common knowledge" without requiring a shred of evidence - is either extremely gullible, or a blind Israeli partisan.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Datalife

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #38 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 6:52pm:

Ok, reality check - in case you haven't noticed these firecrackers are pretty small - like very maneuverable small. Isn't it conceivable that they can fire a rocket or two from a relatively open space, and then pack them up and hide them before Israel has a chance to pinpoint where it came from?

No, modern Israel radar direction and counter battery calculators would have return rounds on the way whilst the Hamas rockets are still in the air.

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freediver

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #39 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:40pm

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Hamas - military capacity? Now there's a laugh.

OK, I think we do not even need evidence to figure this out. Hamas manages to consistently attack Israel, without the Israeli army wiping them out before heading out for kebabs. How do you think Hamas manages this?

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Ok, reality check - in case you haven't noticed these firecrackers are pretty small - like very maneuverable small. Isn't it conceivable that they can fire a rocket or two from a relatively open space, and then pack them up and hide them before Israel has a chance to pinpoint where it came from?

Hide where? Behind their mother's skirts? That way it would be unfair for Israeli to drop a large bomb on it when they eventually figured out where they were hiding it, right?

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Besides, the human shield claim isn't just the firing-rockets-from-busy-neighbourhoods allegation, its also that Hamas is forcing civilians to stay in the firing line. This is directly refuted by independent reporting referenced earlier.

You choose to set a remarkably low standard for evidence when it suits you.

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Thus the Israel government has form

I don't even know what conclusion you are leaping to here.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #40 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:08pm

Datalife wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:39pm:

No, modern Israel radar direction and counter battery calculators would have return rounds on the way whilst the Hamas rockets are still in the air.

Of course,the operators couldn't possibly be already disassembling them and be on the move - whilst the rockets are still in the air.

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:40pm:

OK, I think we do not even need evidence to figure this out. Hamas manages to consistently attack Israel, without the Israeli army wiping them out before heading out for kebabs. How do you think Hamas manages this?

Let me guess - with their awesome military capacity?

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:40pm:

You choose to set a remarkably low standard for evidence when it suits you

How so? Independent reporters don't constitute a good standard of evidence? Maybe we should stick to "common knowledge" eh?

From the Guardian:

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Israel also claimed that Hamas had forced civilians to remain in the Gaza City neighbourhood of Shujai'iya after the IDF warned them to evacuate ahead of its assault on Sunday. Civilians were being "held as hostages", said Peter Lerner, an IDF military spokesman.

These claims have not been backed up by independent reporting from international journalists covering the war from Gaza. Instead, dispatches from the ground have presented complex reasons why some residents did not evacuate from Shujai'iya and other areas targeted by the IDF. Many said nowhere in Gaza was safe, so they saw little point in abandoning their homes.

Others cited worries about not knowing the identities of people who would be their new neighbours; they could be evacuating a familiar neighbourhood for one that was a militant stronghold and others were simply too terrified to go out on the streets. Many media reports said there was no evidence of coercion by Hamas.

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:40pm:

I don't even know what conclusion you are leaping to here

That they are lying about civilians being forced to stay by Hamas. Of course we don't have "common knowledge" to back us up, so thats going to be a problem I suppose...

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106057 Melbourne Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #41 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:09pm Sir Bobby, Quote: Dear Freediver, have you ever thought that Hamas has gone crazy Freediver the fisherman Quote: Yes War is crazy - it's what happens when men don't agree & decades of hatred gets in the way of reason. namaste
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #42 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:12pm No no Bobby, its all about Islam. Hamas is a symptom of islam you see. The blockade only started because there are a group of muslims who want to emulate their Prophet's example. See a blockade for 5 years before the rockets started doesn't constitute a blockade. We all blame islam - 100%, never ever.
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Datalife

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #43 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:23pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

Of course,the operators couldn't possibly be already disassembling them and be on the move - whilst the rockets are still in the air.

I don't think you appreciate the speed and effectiveness of modern counter-battery fire.

And as a solution it would not work anyway, incoming fire would be almost immediate and if you are in an open area it is too easy to program the template with a suitable beaten zone.

Or just have the clearing from which you receive fire surveilled by a reaper drone 24/7.

If you sincerely believe that Hamas do not use civilian infrastructure as a shield for its activities you are either irrational in a way that Hamas is not or incredibly naive and unthinking.

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freediver

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #44 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:35pm

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Let me guess - with their awesome military capacity?

By hiding behind their mothers skirts.

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How so? Independent reporters don't constitute a good standard of evidence? Maybe we should stick to "common knowledge" eh?

Your article is vague arm waving. Being "independent" doesn't mean anything.

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That they are lying about civilians being forced to stay by Hamas.

But not about hiding behind their mothers' skirts?

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I don't think you appreciate the speed and effectiveness of modern counter-battery fire.

There is a good video floating around of that.

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