Australian Politics Forum - About those alleged "human shields" in gaza

freediver

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #60 - Jul 29^th, 2014 at 7:15pm

Quote:

Dismissing the accounts of independent reporters as "leaps of logic" - and whatever other meaningless crap jumps into your head without even attempting to explain what you mean by that description is grade A trolling

By that I mean there is an absence of logic. A leap, if you prefer. If you'd like I can quote the absence of logic for you. Might as well do it now:

Quote:

Do you see the lack of logic there?

I have, by the way, provided several counter-arguments that rest largely on logic, or at the very least require you to reveal the hidden assumptions you are making - eg Hamas' mysterious ability that no-one else knows about to take on the Israeli army without hiding behind their mother's skirts.

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We have here the only thing remotely resembling evidence in relation to the human shield claim, yet you would dismiss and belittle it, and insist that blatant propaganda must be accepted at face value without question. In fact not just dismissing and belittling it, but not even attempting a sensible justification for doing so - outside the standard 'garrr evil muslims" meme.

It is an absence of evidence, not actual evidence. That is a logical fallacy.

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Firstly *YOU* don't care if that meme is even true

I don't care what flavour of scumbag Hamas is, and I think you are only trying to get hung up on the minutia to avoid the elephant in the room - that Hamas hides behind their mothers skirts and deliberately heaps suffering on their fellow palestinians for political gain.

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Secondly, this "one particular version" is based on the only shred of evidence about the meme that has been presented thus far. If you wish to discuss a different version - that is based on some actual evidence - and not just your prejudicial bs masquerading as "common sense" and "common knowledge" - then lets have it.

I have presented it, over and over again. I am getting sick of repeating it, only for you to completely ignore it.

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I'd say thats about as open as you can get in Gaza.

So what is that wall on the right of the image? I have already responded to Annie's bullshit claim that there are no open spaces in Gaza. Do I need to repeat myself?

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Also, lets look at the actual evidence to date - Israel and the UN made much song and dance about rockets being stored in a disused school. I say again - a disused school. Tell me, if they were all about hiding behind little girl's skirts, why wouldn't they use an actual school, full of little kids, rather than a disused school?

Because the palestinians who get sick of Hamas heaping misery after misery upon them might dob them in to the Israelis. Kids talk, and a bunch of hooded militants wheeling rocket vehicles in and out of a school full of kids is such a caricature of Islamic stupidity I am sure it has actually happened.

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Given what evidence we have at the moment (and that is bugger all), the scenario that Hamas is using buildings and other terrain that is as least populated as is practically possible for Gaza, but still provides some cover for them - is just as plausible as the alternative made-for-propaganda scenario spewed every opportunity by Israeli authorities.

Sure, if you maintain the absurd delusion that Hamas is a military strength compared to Israel. I was hoping I would not have to explain something as basic as that to you.

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They probably are - but occupations tend to produce scum.

Hamas has floated to the top of the scum. Few movements inflict such misery on their supposed comrades as Hamas on the Palestinians.

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Another viewpoint is that the Israeli government is scum

Wow, such conviction. Another viewpoint is that Israel should simply lay down their arms and wait for the Palestinians to forgive and forget. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, aren't they.

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for engaging in collective punishment

Crap. By any historical measure (especially the Muslim ones) they have been saints.

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Actually the thread is about what evidence we have for the propaganda being used by the Israeli government (check the OP). What trolling is, if it really needs to be spelled out to you, is perpetuating baseless smears and caricatures and masquearading it as "common sense" and "common knowledge".

It is not baseless. I have explained it all, over and over again, which you are steadfastly ignoring, while pretending my argument is nothing more than baseless smears.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96227 Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #61 - Jul 29^th, 2014 at 8:30pm You didn’t answer the question, FD. Evasion is a Moslem tactic, you know.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #62 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 12:10am

freediver wrote on Jul 29^th, 2014 at 7:15pm:

It is not baseless. I have explained it all, over and over again, which you are steadfastly ignoring

Oh I know FD - we have "common knowledge", "common sense", and now "logic". As in, when reporters in Gaza point out that there are a complex set of reasons why residents don't flee the bombing, and that there is no indication that it was because Hamas forced them to stay - its clearly an "absence of logic". I think we're well across that FD - no need to keep repeating it.

And I'm not ignoring them, I'm just pointing out that we have other terms for those as well - such as "unsubstantiated", "propaganda", "contradicted (by actual evidence)" - and "BS trolling".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #63 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 8:41am

Quote:

As in, when reporters in Gaza point out that there are a complex set of reasons why residents don't flee the bombing

Nothing to do with not wanting to be out on the street with Israeli return fire on it's way, not to mention all the misguided rockets from Hamas itself? How about not even knowing which way to run?

How powerful do you think the Hamas militia is? Do you think it would be possible for them to take on the Israeli military directly without hiding behind their mother's skirts? The photo you posted a link to earlier screams "I like to fire a wocket then wun and hide behind my mother's skirt".

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18574 Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #64 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 12:16pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2014 at 12:10am: reporters in Gaza point out that there are a complex set of reasons why residents don't flee the bombing, and that there is no indication that it was because Hamas forced them to stay Looks like Hamas are beating up those who want to leave.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #65 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 1:33pm

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2014 at 8:41am:

Nothing to do with not wanting to be out on the street with Israeli return fire on it's way, not to mention all the misguided rockets from Hamas itself? How about not even knowing which way to run?

Spot on FD - well done!!

It is asolutely those reasons and more.

Just no evidence for this:

Quote:

“We’re telling the civilians to leave, Hamas is telling them to stay,” Netanyahu said in satellite interviews from Israel. “Why is it telling them to stay? Because it wants to pile up their own dead bodies.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/day-21-obama-calls-netanyahu-urges-immediate-uncond...

None whatsoever, zip, zilch nada. Just BS propaganda to justify slaughtering civilians.

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2014 at 8:41am:

How powerful do you think the Hamas militia is? Do you think it would be possible for them to take on the Israeli military directly without hiding behind their mother's skirts?

The flaw here is you seem to think it makes a difference to whether or not Israel will attack - its pretty obvious it doesn't. Hospitals and multi-storey residences are being flattened regardless.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #66 - Jul 30^th, 2014 at 7:17pm

Quote:

It is asolutely those reasons and more.

So it's not that Hamas if forcing their human shields to be human shields, rather that they are giving them no choice, and it is deplorable propaganda by the Israelis to describe it incorrectly?

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The flaw here is you seem to think it makes a difference to whether or not Israel will attack

It makes a difference to whether you can keep a straight face and argue that Hamas is not hiding behind their mothers skirts - remember all that "logic" you keep going on about, but failing to address?

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its pretty obvious it doesn't. Hospitals and multi-storey residences are being flattened regardless.

Regardless of what? So Israel will shoot back regardless of whether Hamas fires rockets, and the Hamas militants are valiantly standing in the path of Israeli rockets and firing off a few shots before they get obliterated?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #67 - Jul 31^st, 2014 at 12:09am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 30^th, 2014 at 12:16pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2014 at 12:10am:

reporters in Gaza point out that there are a complex set of reasons why residents don't flee the bombing, and that there is no indication that it was because Hamas forced them to stay

Looks like Hamas are beating up those who want to leave.

baron,

Thanks for posting.

YT

"Published on Jul 22, 2014
War crime: Hamas members brutally beating civilians of Gaza who leave their homes following IDF warning......."

Hamas members brutally beating civilians of Gaza who leave their homes following IDF warning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBvhHE8ePxg

A pity the translation commentary is in German.

Where is Annie ?

That is what i want to know.

She could be here, posting something.

Defending the Hamas militants, and condemning the Israelis for being murderers.

And yet the rockets are still being launched by Hamas, against Israeli cities and towns.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #68 - Jul 31^st, 2014 at 12:41am

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2014 at 7:17pm:

So it's not that Hamas if forcing their human shields to be human shields, rather that they are giving them no choice, and it is deplorable propaganda by the Israelis to describe it incorrectly?

I gave you the quote from Netanyahu where he claimed specifically that hamas is ordering people to stay.

I think we both agree that is BS - Netanyahu is not merely "describing it incorrectly" - he is telling bald faced lies to justify the slaughter of hundreds of civilians.

Is it so hard to call a spade a spade?

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2014 at 7:17pm:

Regardless of what? So Israel will shoot back regardless of whether Hamas fires rockets, and the Hamas militants are valiantly standing in the path of Israeli rockets and firing off a few shots before they get obliterated?

You just finished arguing that Hamas are prevailing only because they use human shields. Yet you seem to agree with me that human shields are no obstacle to the Israelis - and Hamas are getting "obliterated" anyway. So there goes your argument about why hamas can't operate from non-built up areas.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #69 - Jul 31^st, 2014 at 8:19am

posted by mantra, #21

Quote:

....The onslaught is indiscriminate and unrelenting, with but one possible conclusion: Israel is not fighting the terrorists of Hamas. In defiance of the laws of war and the norms of civilised behaviour, it is waging its own war of terror on the entire Gaza population of about 1.7 million people. Call it genocide, call it ethnic cleansing: the aim is to kill Arabs.

As none other than Malcolm Fraser tweeted this week: "If any other country went to war killing as many civilians, women and children, it would be named a war crime." But it is not, although the UN is asking the question of both sides.

Yes, Hamas is also trying to kill Israeli civilians, with a barrage of rockets and guerilla border attacks. It, too, is guilty of terror and grave war crimes. But Israeli citizens and their homes and towns have been effectively shielded by the nation's Iron Dome defence system, and so far only three of its civilians have died in this latest conflict.

The Israeli response has been out of all proportion, a monstrous distortion of the much-vaunted right of self defence.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/israels-rank-and-rotten-fruit-is-being-called-fasc...

The current conflict involving Gaza and Israel.....

Hamas militants continue to launch their rockets against Israeli cities and towns, from wherever they can, including from beside civilian infrastructure, hospitals, civilian shelters and UN schools.

But Israel must not respond, nor retaliate against the Hamas militants who fire their rockets [against Israeli cities and towns from these locations], we are told - because the Israelis may cause casualties among Gaza's civilians.

And there is a rising cacophony of insistent voices within the world community of nations - that Israel must cease trying to target Hamas militants [who are firing rockets against Israeli cities and towns] - because the Israelis may will certainly, cause casualties among Gaza's civilians !

Yet nobody at the United Nations [hardly anyone] points out that - TO END THE CARNAGE THAT IS OCCURRING - all that is required, is that Hamas must cease launching rockets - laden with High Explosives - against Israeli cities and towns.

"If you cut me, do i not bleed?"

The next time you get an itch,    ......DO NOT SCRATCH IT.

The next time a mosquito bites you on your arm,    ......DO NOT SWAT IT.

The next time an American Pit Bull dog bites your child, and hangs on, and hangs on, and hangs on,    ......DO NOT BEAT THE DOG - WHICH IS ATTACKING YOUR CHILD.

Show some restraint!!!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #70 - Jul 31^st, 2014 at 1:15pm

Quote:

I think we both agree that is BS - Netanyahu is not merely "describing it incorrectly" - he is telling bald faced lies to justify the slaughter of hundreds of civilians.

No we don't both agree. They probably do what he accuses them off. Not caring what flavour scum Hamas are is not the same as agreeing with you on what flavour of scum they are.

If this alleged misrepresentation is the worst thing you can dig up on them then in my opinion you are painting Israel in a very positive light.

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Is it so hard to call a spade a spade?

Lets see. Would you call Hamas' human shields human shields? You have been doing your best to avoid the topic of whether Hamas is even capable of doing what they do without using human shields.

Quote:

You just finished arguing that Hamas are prevailing only because they use human shields. Yet you seem to agree with me that human shields are no obstacle to the Israelis - and Hamas are getting "obliterated" anyway. So there goes your argument about why hamas can't operate from non-built up areas.

That makes no sense Gandalf. I have been arguing the exact opposite - that human shields are an obstacle, and that hamas would be wiped out in 5 minutes if they did not use them. Israel is forced, through common decency (which hamas completely lacks) to significantly scale down it's response compared to what it would do if this was a more conventional military vs military engagement. It does this to avoid the mass casualties that would otherwise occur due to the fact that Hamas is hiding behind their mothers skirts. Just because Israel cannot completely avoid death or injury to the human shields does not mean it is no obstacle to them. You are deliberately creating a false dichotomy here. Israel has more than two options open to them.

This is exactly the sort of stupidty that Hamas relies on to get international sympathy and to milk the misery of the Palestinian people for their own political end. Being a progressive Muslim, you should be trying to put an end to this misery, not trying to enable it by spewing ignorant hamas propaganda at every opportunity. The Palestinian people deserve better than Hamas and they deserve better than you trying to shift the blame for the misery that Hamas constantly inflicts on them. They are not going to get it, of course, because Islam is in the way, doing what it does, preventing people from thinking for themselves or putting it in any perspective.

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« Last Edit: Jul 31^st, 2014 at 1:23pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #71 - Jul 31^st, 2014 at 5:14pm

freediver wrote on Jul 31^st, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Quote:

I think we both agree that is BS - Netanyahu is not merely "describing it incorrectly" - he is telling bald faced lies to justify the slaughter of hundreds of civilians.

No we don't both agree.

True, FD, but I'm sure you'll agree; it is not our job to agree or disagree. Our job is to ask questions.

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Bobby.

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #72 - Jul 31^st, 2014 at 7:50pm

freediver wrote on Jul 31^st, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Quote:

I think we both agree that is BS - Netanyahu is not merely "describing it incorrectly" - he is telling bald faced lies to justify the slaughter of hundreds of civilians.

No we don't both agree. They probably do what he accuses them off. Not caring what flavour scum Hamas are is not the same as agreeing with you on what flavour of scum they are.

If this alleged misrepresentation is the worst thing you can dig up on them then in my opinion you are painting Israel in a very positive light.

Quote:

Is it so hard to call a spade a spade?

Lets see. Would you call Hamas' human shields human shields? You have been doing your best to avoid the topic of whether Hamas is even capable of doing what they do without using human shields.

Quote:

You just finished arguing that Hamas are prevailing only because they use human shields. Yet you seem to agree with me that human shields are no obstacle to the Israelis - and Hamas are getting "obliterated" anyway. So there goes your argument about why hamas can't operate from non-built up areas.

That makes no sense Gandalf. I have been arguing the exact opposite - that human shields are an obstacle, and that hamas would be wiped out in 5 minutes if they did not use them. Israel is forced, through common decency (which hamas completely lacks) to significantly scale down it's response compared to what it would do if this was a more conventional military vs military engagement. It does this to avoid the mass casualties that would otherwise occur due to the fact that Hamas is hiding behind their mothers skirts. Just because Israel cannot completely avoid death or injury to the human shields does not mean it is no obstacle to them. You are deliberately creating a false dichotomy here. Israel has more than two options open to them.

This is exactly the sort of stupidty that Hamas relies on to get international sympathy and to milk the misery of the Palestinian people for their own political end. Being a progressive Muslim, you should be trying to put an end to this misery, not trying to enable it by spewing ignorant hamas propaganda at every opportunity. The Palestinian people deserve better than Hamas and they deserve better than you trying to shift the blame for the misery that Hamas constantly inflicts on them. They are not going to get it, of course, because Islam is in the way, doing what it does, preventing people from thinking for themselves or putting it in any perspective.

How many innocent kids will die before this latest war is over?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #73 - Aug 1^st, 2014 at 9:34pm

freediver wrote on Jul 31^st, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Quote:

I think we both agree that is BS - Netanyahu is not merely "describing it incorrectly" - he is telling bald faced lies to justify the slaughter of hundreds of civilians.

No we don't both agree. They probably do what he accuses them off. Not caring what flavour scum Hamas are is not the same as agreeing with you on what flavour of scum they are.

If this alleged misrepresentation is the worst thing you can dig up on them then in my opinion

telling fibs in order to help facilitate the slaughter of hundreds is not a trivial matter. its spineless apologetics like this that enables israel to get away with this sort of stuff.

Quote:

That makes no sense Gandalf. I have been arguing the exact opposite - that human shields are an obstacle, and that hamas would be wiped out in 5 minutes if they did not use them. Israel is forced, through common decency (which hamas completely lacks) to significantly scale down it's response compared to what it would do if this was a more conventional military vs military engagement. It does this to avoid the mass casualties that would otherwise occur due to the fact that Hamas is hiding behind their mothers skirts.

baseless crap

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #74 - Aug 1^st, 2014 at 9:39pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 31^st, 2014 at 7:50pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 31^st, 2014 at 1:15pm:

Quote:

I think we both agree that is BS - Netanyahu is not merely "describing it incorrectly" - he is telling bald faced lies to justify the slaughter of hundreds of civilians.

No we don't both agree. They probably do what he accuses them off. Not caring what flavour scum Hamas are is not the same as agreeing with you on what flavour of scum they are.

If this alleged misrepresentation is the worst thing you can dig up on them then in my opinion you are painting Israel in a very positive light.

Quote:

Is it so hard to call a spade a spade?

Lets see. Would you call Hamas' human shields human shields? You have been doing your best to avoid the topic of whether Hamas is even capable of doing what they do without using human shields.

Quote:

You just finished arguing that Hamas are prevailing only because they use human shields. Yet you seem to agree with me that human shields are no obstacle to the Israelis - and Hamas are getting "obliterated" anyway. So there goes your argument about why hamas can't operate from non-built up areas.

That makes no sense Gandalf. I have been arguing the exact opposite - that human shields are an obstacle, and that hamas would be wiped out in 5 minutes if they did not use them. Israel is forced, through common decency (which hamas completely lacks) to significantly scale down it's response compared to what it would do if this was a more conventional military vs military engagement. It does this to avoid the mass casualties that would otherwise occur due to the fact that Hamas is hiding behind their mothers skirts. Just because Israel cannot completely avoid death or injury to the human shields does not mean it is no obstacle to them. You are deliberately creating a false dichotomy here. Israel has more than two options open to them.

This is exactly the sort of stupidty that Hamas relies on to get international sympathy and to milk the misery of the Palestinian people for their own political end. Being a progressive Muslim, you should be trying to put an end to this misery, not trying to enable it by spewing ignorant hamas propaganda at every opportunity. The Palestinian people deserve better than Hamas and they deserve better than you trying to shift the blame for the misery that Hamas constantly inflicts on them. They are not going to get it, of course, because Islam is in the way, doing what it does, preventing people from thinking for themselves or putting it in any perspective.

How many innocent kids will die before this latest war is over?

How many more rockets, will Hamas launch against Israeli cities and towns, bobby ?

Do tell us all, bobby.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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