polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 1^st, 2014 at 9:34pm:


Are you saying that is not what I have been arguing? We don't seem to be getting anywhere Gandalf, apparently because you have no idea what is going on.

freediver wrote on Aug 1^st, 2014 at 9:49pm:


Sorry I was struggling to make a meaningful post on my phone (my advise don't try it - trying to put the cursor in the right spot for editing quotes is an absolute nightmare).

Anyway, let me be more clear:

this specifically...

freediver wrote on Aug 1^st, 2014 at 9:49pm:


= baseless crap.

We know Israel is targeting Hamas targets wherever it can find them. There is no bases on which to make the claim that Israel is "significantly scaling down its response" if it believes that such targeting will put civilians in harms way. Even Israeli propaganda is not giving us any hint that this is the case. There is much fanfare about those "tap on the roof" warning shots and phone calls to residents to leave specific targets - but after that, there is no evidence that Israel holds off or "scales down" its attack when there is a high probability that innocents are still at the premise(s). In fact Israel has hinted that they think they are under no obligation to do so - since they can (and do) use the "oh but we told them to leave" defense.

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They know exactly where they are - in the Gaza strip.

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Except of course for the bleeding obvious. Israel could chain drag the entire strip if it wanted to.

You are still avoiding the question of how strong Hamas is in a military sense. Why? The closest you have come is a ridiculous reference to a Hollywood film.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:53pm:



gandalf,

What's not to understand ?

Wherever Allah provides the 'opportunity', moslems are commanded to engage in warfare against their fellow man.

And because their fellow man are deemed to have the status of cattle, they [the infidels] may be slaughtered - whenever such an outcome serves 'the cause of Allah'.

Even ISLAMIC scholars know that slaughter of your fellow man, in 'the cause of Allah', is Kosher halal.



ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

"....parroting baseless propaganda"

gandalf,

What's not to understand ?

Allah declares - IN THE KORAN ITSELF - that the words in the Koran are clear [perspicuous!!], and therefore those words [contained within the Koran] can only mean, what a rational person understands the Koran texts to mean.


Koran
012.001
YUSUFALI: A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book.
PICKTHAL: Alif. Lam. Ra. These are verse of the Scripture that maketh plain.
SHAKIR: Alif Lam Ra. These are the verses of the Book that makes (things) manifest.


Koran
026.002
YUSUFALI: These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.
PICKTHAL: These are revelations of the Scripture that maketh plain.
SHAKIR: These are the verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.



Dictionary;
perspicuous = =
1 clearly expressed and easily understood; lucid.
2 expressing things clearly.





as per....

"...Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


But its all Chinese to me.       

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You also made a parallel with an invincible alien enemy. So how do you reconcile a non-existent military force constantly attacking one of the world's most advanced militaries with your insistence that they are not hiding behind their mother's skirts?

Do you think it is somehow unfair that their military is periodically decimated and prevented from getting their hands on more advanced weapoins?

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The evidence is there. You are just incapable of seeing it for what it is. You don't even know what the evidence should look like. You are basically expecting us to give you photos of what Israel does not do. Israel could level entire cities in a day. They do not do this, because of the civilians. It is not the evidence that is lacking, but logic on your part. It is all there. You just need to join the dots. For most people, this really does fall into the bleeding obvious category.

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Are you conceding that they are in fact hiding behind their mothers' skirts? Or are you arguing that because you have deluded yourself into thinking Israel is not holding back, hiding behind their mothers' skirts somehow becomes not hiding behind their mothers' skirts?

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You have been going to great lengths to explain that this is not the same thing and that you are only disagreeing with a very narrow, specific claim by the Israelis, rather than the broader issue of the deliberate and cynical use of human shields by Hamas.

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It is Hamas who denies them human rights.

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No Gandalf, merely capable of it. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

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Flattening the entire Gaza strip would also flatten Hamas.

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How about you explain what the "evidence" you demand of me would look like? You appear to concede that Israel is capable of far more than what it does, but somehow cannot make the huge mental leap from there to Israel holding back militarily.

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That is the point of Human shields Gandalf. Israel are not the police. They are not ruling Palestine as you claim they are. Instead, they are returning indiscriminate Hamas rocket fire with far more accurate missiles of their own - but they are still doing this from a long distance away. It is not reasonable to expect them to drop a bomb on the head of one Hamas militant but not injure nearby civilians. That is a fairytale, and the ultimate in hypocrisy. That is why the world condones Israel killing a "proportionate" (you will hear this term uttered by world leaders in reference to Israel on a regular basis) number of Palestinian civilians, because any unbiased consideration of the facts can only lead to one conclusion - that it is Hamas that is to blame when this happens, not Israel.

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Is there any Hamas military infrastructure that Israel is aware of that they do not target? Or are you trying to blame Israel for not knowing all the places where Hamas stashes its rockets behind their mothers' skirts?

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More blatant crap. I have responded to the "densely populated area" argument several times already in this thread. You are blatantly lying about this, then changing the topic ever time this is pointed out to you. If Hamas wanted to avoid civilian casualties, it is easily within their power to move military infrastructure outside of urban areas. They do not do this, no because there is nowhere to go, but because they actually want Palestinian civilians to die, so they can capitalise politically on the misery they inflict on them.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 12:01pm:



You are mistaken or lying Annie [i cannot know which].

You and other apologists for Hamas would like everyone to believe that Gaza is so built up, and so densely populated, that Gazan civilians have no opportunity to remove themselves from 'targeted' areas - whenever Gazans receive warnings from Israel to evacuate a suburb/area.
OR,
To you want us to believe that Hamas has no opportunity to fire rockets at Israel, except from densely populated 'built-up' areas.

Those proposition are just not true.

And you, are spreading LIES.








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http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4580/gaza-population-density



I have watched an interview with a Gazan doctor, complain;

...."Why are the Israelis targeting civilians? Why don't the Israeli soldiers fight against soldiers, instead of killings only civilians???"

Coz it is a Hamas strategy to cause as many casualties among Gazan civilians as it can, whenever it fights against Israel - so as to portray Israel as murderers of civilians.

The truth is that Hamas could launch its rockets from the open areas, that do exist within Gaza.

But Hamas militants are cowards who are trying to protect their own militants, at the expense of casualties among Gazan civilians - because Hamas knows that Israel has no option but to 'return fire', or, to surrender to every demand that Hamas makes [or watch its own Israeli population be subjected to the terror of Hamas rockets].



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