Australian Politics Forum - About those alleged "human shields" in gaza

polite_gandalf

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About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Jul 27^th, 2014 at 1:22am

No Israeli meme has, during this latest onslaught on Gaza, been more potent in justifying the slaughter of hundreds of innocent civilians than the "human shield" one.

Hamas is, according to incessant Israeli propaganda -

1. deliberately stockpiling and firing rockets from dense civilian areas

2. ordering civilians not to leave the areas that Israel is targeting.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/meast/human-shields-mideast-controversy/...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/gaza-hamas-fighters-military-bases-...

To summarise both articles - both claims are utterly baseless

Israel has not presented a shred of proof for either. About the only relevant piece of evidence that has come to light is that stockpiles were found in an abandoned UN school. I repeat - hamas stockpiled weapons in a UN run school which was already abandoned.

As for Hamas ordering civilians to stay in targeted neighbourhoods - from the Guardian article:

Quote:

These claims have not been backed up by independent reporting from international journalists covering the war from Gaza. Instead, dispatches from the ground have presented complex reasons why some residents did not evacuate from Shujai'iya and other areas targeted by the IDF. Many said nowhere in Gaza was safe, so they saw little point in abandoning their homes.

Others cited worries about not knowing the identities of people who would be their new neighbours; they could be evacuating a familiar neighbourhood for one that was a militant stronghold and others were simply too terrified to go out on the streets. Many media reports said there was no evidence of coercion by Hamas.

To end off, lets examine the concept of hypocricy...

The only known use of human shields in the history of this conflict was by Israel during the second intifada (started in 2000). Israel has acknowledged this, so don't even bother trying to dispute this.

The Israeli supreme court banned the practice in 2005, but the practice by the IDF has been widely reported as recently as Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9 - read more

examples of brave Israeli soldiers employing human shields:

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96364	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #1 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 1:28am Yes, G, but I think you’ll find that Israel is entirely justified in using children as human shields, etc, because these people are Muslims. Don’t deny it, Muselman: you started it.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #2 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 1:37am Yes, but there's one thing I can't work out: If Hamas and all the other Palestinian terrorists are all for slaughtering their own people, why did the IDF think using human shields was a good idea?
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96364	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #3 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 2:38am That’s a hard one. If anyone can work it out though, it’s Y. He’ll know for sure.
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aquascoot Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 34975 Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #4 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 6:33am That kid was just getting a lift to school because his donkey broke down, nothing more
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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #5 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:14am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 1:22am:

No Israeli meme has, during this latest onslaught on Gaza, been more potent in justifying the slaughter of hundreds of innocent civilians than the "human shield" one.

Hamas is, according to incessant Israeli propaganda -

1. deliberately stockpiling and firing rockets from dense civilian areas

2. ordering civilians not to leave the areas that Israel is targeting.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/meast/human-shields-mideast-controversy/...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/gaza-hamas-fighters-military-bases-...

To summarise both articles - both claims are utterly baseless

Israel has not presented a shred of proof for either. About the only relevant piece of evidence that has come to light is that stockpiles were found in an abandoned UN school. I repeat - hamas stockpiled weapons in a UN run school which was already abandoned.

As for Hamas ordering civilians to stay in targeted neighbourhoods - from the Guardian article:

Quote:

These claims have not been backed up by independent reporting from international journalists covering the war from Gaza. Instead, dispatches from the ground have presented complex reasons why some residents did not evacuate from Shujai'iya and other areas targeted by the IDF. Many said nowhere in Gaza was safe, so they saw little point in abandoning their homes.

Others cited worries about not knowing the identities of people who would be their new neighbours; they could be evacuating a familiar neighbourhood for one that was a militant stronghold and others were simply too terrified to go out on the streets. Many media reports said there was no evidence of coercion by Hamas.

To end off, lets examine the concept of hypocricy...

The only known use of human shields in the history of this conflict was by Israel during the second intifada (started in 2000). Israel has acknowledged this, so don't even bother trying to dispute this.

The Israeli supreme court banned the practice in 2005, but the practice by the IDF has been widely reported as recently as Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9 - read more

examples of brave Israeli soldiers employing human shields:

http://palestinechronicle.com/uploads/1256368345israel_human_shields.jpg

http://www.palestineremembered.com/images/dailymail_humanshield.jpg

Your first mistake is using the Guardian newspaper as a reference, and a photo of a boy picked up by border forces for throwing rocks at the Israeli's however the headlines states the Israeli's were using him as a human shield.
Given the vehicle is a jeep, I would have thought the bonnet is an appropriate place to keep him secure at the time.
Your references suck.

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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza Reply #6 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:31am Chicken lips - do you think the civilian casualties are justified? You and I have had sensible talks about sensitive topics before, so I hope you know I am not baiting you. I'm generally interested to know if you think these deaths are okay.
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Yadda

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #7 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:59am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:31am:

Chicken lips - do you think the civilian casualties are justified? You and I have had sensible talks about sensitive topics before, so I hope you know I am not baiting you. I'm generally interested to know if you think these deaths are okay.

Annie,

"....do you think the civilian casualties are justified?"

Jihadists do.

See my next post in this thread.

Google;

"There Can Be No End to Jihad"

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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aquascoot

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #8 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:04am

Why all this concern for a handful of the most pampered spoilt rotten fat little , poorly parented brats.
Why the gazillions of $$$$ that are wasted on them by the UN . When they show no appreciation.
Why not spend a tiny fraction of that waste on the estimated 5 million kids starving to death in south Sudanese wars.
I'll tell you why.
Because western media and international hand wringers have OCD on this issue.

I have respect for the Taliban, courageous fighters.
I have respect for the 9/11 pilots. They had more guts then most.
I have zero respect for bored Palestinians who get a buzz out of playing this real life game of skirmish when most of those shedding blood aren't the hot head rabble .
And as for the Egyptian aid tunnels being cut off , the Egyptians despise Hamas, which is a Muslim brotherhood gang. The Jordanians, the Saudis, they look at the Palestinians as scumbags, they don't want them in their lands. They are lucky the Jews give them some sort of work prospects

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Yadda

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #9 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:07am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 1:37am:

Yes, but there's one thing I can't work out:

If Hamas and all the other Palestinian terrorists are all for slaughtering their own people, why did the IDF think using human shields was a good idea? Cheesy

Could it be - because Western media crews are recording the incident ?

Are Palestinian terrorists moslem terrorists at all concerned for the life of - a - single Palestinian child ?

In my estimation, NOT AT ALL.

AND HERE IS SUPPORTING EVIDENCE FROM AN ISLAMIC 'AUTHORITY';

Quote:

There Can Be No End to Jihad'

Islamist Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, in an exclusive interview, discusses the rationale for 9/11, the Christians he most respects, and the Jesus he defends.
posted 11/05/2007
....Any weapons are legitimate in jihad. Even animals may be used as "suicide bombers"!

It is not restricted by target—even Muslims or children, if used by the enemy as human shields, can be killed.

....Killing women and children never was and never will be part of the jihad in Islam, whether that be the women or children of the Muslims or non-Muslims. So if Chechen mujahedeen killed women and children in Beslan, I would condemn it. The children of non-Muslims, such as those at Beslan, who die in such circumstances go to Paradise.
....Women and children [i.e. boys under 15] or Muslims are not legitimate targets—nor are any noncombatants [clergy, disabled, insane, elderly, etc.]. Not even Israeli children or women, unless they serve in the military, which most do, or live in properties taken from dispossessed Palestinians (Muslim or Christian), which virtually all do.

However, if children are killed, the fault lies with the adult occupiers who brought them into a battlefield situation.

Google;

"There Can Be No End to Jihad"

SO THE QUESTION MUST BE ASKED;
If Palestinian terrorists moslem terrorists do not value the life of a moslem child [who is being used as a human shield], then why don't they shoot him ?

WHY, do the Palestinian terrorists moslem terrorists tend not to attack the IDF, if there is a Palestinian human shield situated beside the IDF ?

THERE IS ONE OBVIOUS REASON.

It is because it would be very, very bad PR [PR which is being produced for Western audiences] if moslem terrorists were - publicly - seen to shoot their own children.

The Palestinian terrorists know that it would 'not be a good look' to - publicly - shoot their own children - especially when the incident is being recorded by independent international media, who are filming the incident.

It is known by all, that Palestinian combatants want to present themselves - to the Western media and to Western audiences - as the victims of Israeli violence.

Not as killers - of their own children.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #10 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:55am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:31am:

Chicken lips - do you think the civilian casualties are justified? You and I have had sensible talks about sensitive topics before, so I hope you know I am not baiting you. I'm generally interested to know if you think these deaths are okay.

I know you are not baiting me Annie, and I never would have thought so.
The civilian casualties are never ever justified, however I am increasingly saddened by the total inevitability of the situation.
The moment Hamas started firing long range rockets into Israel the week before invasion reaching northern cities and towns left the Israeli's with no choice whatsoever other than to go in to Gaza to destroy Hamas.
Hamas is sworn to the killing of Jews and the total destruction of Israel, meaning there is no room left for negotiation.
They simply want the Jews dead.
The Israeli Jews are under no illusion that should Hamas prevail, the world will sit back and witness another Holocaust, and the Israeli's truly believe they can expect no assistance from the UN in this case and can only count on themselves to protect their people.
And Israel can have a ceasefire for as long as they like as many times as they like, Hamas will continue to attack regardless.
Israel wants to meet peace with peace, however is prepared to meet war with war.
And the mixture of total urban warfare coupled with Hamas being totally ingratiated into Palestinian society having no soldiers barracks to live in, means there will be automatically increased civilian casualties despite any attempt by the Israeli's to minimise casualties through various means.
Hamas has been found time and time again to be using schools, hospitals and areas close to UN buildings to launch attacks into Israel making them legitimate targets of war.
The UN has been found to be good at talking but dreadfully poor in action.
Logic would suggest the Bluecaps should be kept in Gaza to keep the terrorists in check, however the experience in southern Lebanon before the 2006 invasion against Hezbollah demonstrated the UN's total incapability in stopping the terrorists ability to re-arm themselves as we saw.
The Bluecaps were left cowering in their barracks in fear for their lives leaving the terrorists to go about their business, and we could expect the same in Gaza should foreign troops ever be stationed there.
Hamas pushed the Israeli's too far this time, and the Israeli government and IDF are now totally committed to ripping out Hamas from Palestinian society 'root and branch'.
This can only mean one thing.
More civilian casualties.

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freediver

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #11 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:57am

Quote:

These claims have not been backed up by independent reporting from international journalists covering the war from Gaza. Instead, dispatches from the ground have presented complex reasons why some residents did not evacuate from Shujai'iya and other areas targeted by the IDF. Many said nowhere in Gaza was safe, so they saw little point in abandoning their homes.

Others cited worries about not knowing the identities of people who would be their new neighbours; they could be evacuating a familiar neighbourhood for one that was a militant stronghold and others were simply too terrified to go out on the streets. Many media reports said there was no evidence of coercion by Hamas.

And this proves Hamas is not using densely populated areas?

Gandalf, you yourself recently claimed that a 2 year old casualty of Israel was in fact killed by a Palestinian rocket fired from within a densely populated urban area that misfired and went into the house in front. The child topped the list of civilian casualties being blamed on Israel at the time and being posted widely on this forum.

The fact is Hamas is outgunned. They are militarily inferior by orders of magnitude. The only way they can keep it up is by hiding behind their mother's skirts and relying on Israel keeping the moral high ground. They actually want the Palestinian casualties, because that is what keeps the Muslims angry and supporting Hamas (Abu actually explained his support for this line of thinking in one of his more chilling moments). They would rather they all die than admit defeat. If Hamas ever faced off against Israel without hiding behind their mothers skirts, they would be wiped out in about three and a half seconds and everyone would move on.

It takes an elaborate exercise in ignoring reality to analyse it any other way.

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Yadda

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #12 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:20am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:55am:

.....

The UN has been found to be good at talking but dreadfully poor in action.
Logic would suggest the Bluecaps should be kept in Gaza to keep the terrorists in check, however the experience in southern Lebanon before the 2006 invasion against Hezbollah demonstrated the UN's total incapability in stopping the terrorists ability to re-arm themselves as we saw.
The Bluecaps were left cowering in their barracks in fear for their lives leaving the terrorists to go about their business, and we could expect the same in Gaza should foreign troops ever be stationed there.

If the UN deployed 'Bluecaps' in Gaza, these UN 'peacekeepers' [sic] [or monitors of a truce, or as UN monitors, trying to prevent Hamas from rearming/resupplying its military capabilities - UNDER COVER OF A 'TRUCE'!] would merely become human shields for Hamas.

As you say chicken, in the same way that the UN 'peacekeepers' the UN truce monitors became human shields for Hezbolla, in southern Lebanon.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #13 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:30am

Yadda wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:20am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:55am:

.....

The UN has been found to be good at talking but dreadfully poor in action.
Logic would suggest the Bluecaps should be kept in Gaza to keep the terrorists in check, however the experience in southern Lebanon before the 2006 invasion against Hezbollah demonstrated the UN's total incapability in stopping the terrorists ability to re-arm themselves as we saw.
The Bluecaps were left cowering in their barracks in fear for their lives leaving the terrorists to go about their business, and we could expect the same in Gaza should foreign troops ever be stationed there.

If the UN deployed 'Bluecaps' in Gaza, these UN 'peacekeepers' [sic] [or monitors of a truce, or as UN monitors, trying to prevent Hamas from rearming/resupplying its military capabilities - UNDER COVER OF A 'TRUCE'!] would merely become human shields for Hamas.

As you say chicken, in the same way that the UN 'peacekeepers' the UN truce monitors became human shields for Hezbolla, in southern Lebanon.

In southern Lebanon, weren't the UN truce monitors forced to simply evacuate their positions - because of Israeli incoming bombardments, in response to Hezbolla violations ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: About those alleged "human shields" in gaza
Reply #14 - Jul 27^th, 2014 at 10:45am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 8:55am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 7:31am:

Chicken lips - do you think the civilian casualties are justified? You and I have had sensible talks about sensitive topics before, so I hope you know I am not baiting you. I'm generally interested to know if you think these deaths are okay.

I know you are not baiting me Annie, and I never would have thought so.
The civilian casualties are never ever justified, however I am increasingly saddened by the total inevitability of the situation.
The moment Hamas started firing long range rockets into Israel the week before invasion reaching northern cities and towns left the Israeli's with no choice whatsoever other than to go in to Gaza to destroy Hamas.
Hamas is sworn to the killing of Jews and the total destruction of Israel, meaning there is no room left for negotiation.
They simply want the Jews dead.
The Israeli Jews are under no illusion that should Hamas prevail, the world will sit back and witness another Holocaust, and the Israeli's truly believe they can expect no assistance from the UN in this case and can only count on themselves to protect their people.
And Israel can have a ceasefire for as long as they like as many times as they like, Hamas will continue to attack regardless.
Israel wants to meet peace with peace, however is prepared to meet war with war.
And the mixture of total urban warfare coupled with Hamas being totally ingratiated into Palestinian society having no soldiers barracks to live in, means there will be automatically increased civilian casualties despite any attempt by the Israeli's to minimise casualties through various means.
Hamas has been found time and time again to be using schools, hospitals and areas close to UN buildings to launch attacks into Israel making them legitimate targets of war.
The UN has been found to be good at talking but dreadfully poor in action.
Logic would suggest the Bluecaps should be kept in Gaza to keep the terrorists in check, however the experience in southern Lebanon before the 2006 invasion against Hezbollah demonstrated the UN's total incapability in stopping the terrorists ability to re-arm themselves as we saw.
The Bluecaps were left cowering in their barracks in fear for their lives leaving the terrorists to go about their business, and we could expect the same in Gaza should foreign troops ever be stationed there.
Hamas pushed the Israeli's too far this time, and the Israeli government and IDF are now totally committed to ripping out Hamas from Palestinian society 'root and branch'.
This can only mean one thing.
More civilian casualties.

Thank you for that. I appreciate it. I think we both know that we have differing views on this conflict, but I agree about the increasing inevitability of yet more tragedy and how deeply saddening it is. I don't even know what's happening anymore - I can't bear to watch the news.

May it be over as soon as possible. Another point on which I'm sure we agree

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