Of course. Dropping the odd bomb in response to rocket fire is occupation. And right now Barak Obama is sending in war planes to occupy northern Iraq and deprive the local Muslims of responsibility for their own actions.

Do you deliberately set out to ignore the issues FD, or has it just become habit?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 11:00am:


One point at a time Gandalf. If you concede that Israel is not in fact occupying Gaza, that no economy is completely reliant on external trade, and that the Palestinians can in fact exercise choice and be held responsible for their own actions, then you are welcome to rephrase your your argument in a way that more closely reflects reality.

"The millstones of FD and Gandalf grind slow, but they grind exceeding fine." (Euripides)

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 6:30pm:


"Withdrew" is a misnomer. Just about all the things that need to be sovereign for a country to be sovereign is owned by Israel - farmland, borders, airspace and exports. But most of all, anything that is "sovereign" in gaza, is sovereign entirely by the whim of Israel - who frequently decide when its not sovereign, and attack and destroy them at will.

Even when you run with the "but its all because Hamas are scum" argument - the idea that Gaza is not still occupied simply doesn't have legs.

Here's how "sovereign" the Gazan's are in regards to growing their own produce:

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http://palsolidarity.org/2014/07/farming-under-siege-working-the-land-in-gaza/

The "withdrawal" of Israel is a complete fallacy.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 8:59pm:


Yes - as opposed to up to 1.5km inside the border.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 8:59pm:


Gee FD - maybe they do, or did, and thats why Israel established the buffer zone that runs up to 1.5km inside the border (about 1/3 of farmland is on the border with Israel).

Here's the "no-go" zone Israel created during the current assault:



almost half the entire strip - that Israel told Gazan's - don't work here, don't cultivate here, don't even live here - we're going to bomb the sh*t out of it.

Its not that this is a permanent arrangement, its the fact that Israel can, and do, decide what is and what isn't sovereign in Gaza entirely on their own whim. Israel bombed or shelled both the main power plant, as they did in 2009, as they will almost certainly do again within the next two years - plus a whole host of industrial facilities crucial for the Gazan economy.

In 2013 - supposedly when there was no war going on - Israel burst across the border with bulldozers and dug up a whole heap of crops. In 2009 - after the ceasefire for Cast Lead was in effect - Isreal burned about 200 thousand square metres of crops. Isreali human rights group BT Selem reports hundreds of Palestinians have been wounded or killed by Isreali live fire near the border, many of whom are simply farmers attending to their crops.

This is the reality Gazan's have to face. There is a very real physical Isreali presense on and inside Gaza's borders - even apart from the full Isreali control of airspace and imports/exports. But even more than that, Isreal can and do march in and destroy Gazan infrastructure whenever and wherever they want - regularly. They simply do not have any sort of sovereignty over their own lives or economy.

This constitutes an occupation by any definition of the word. You simply have no leg to stand on.

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I notice it includes several big urbanised areas. Did they ethnically cleanse those areas?

Are they still occupying it?

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Of course they do, yet Muslims and their apologists insist it does not exist, and that is why Hamas fires rockets from urban areas. Depending on how you define it, the whole country is on the border. This is just meaningless spin.

It is still not an occupation Gandalf, and Gazans are still responsible for their own actions.

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It is my way of asking a question. Karnal will explain.

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Now I'm confused. Israel is conducting regular incursions into a country it already occupies?

And no I do not agree. Sovereign countries can be at war as often as they want. Just because they keep losing does not mean they are not sovereign. Normally it would, but Israel obviously doesn't want to occupy it. Neither does Egypt, or any other country.

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Except of course for the fact that it is not occupied.