Australian Politics Forum - The ethnic cleansing of Palestine

Yadda

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #75 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:52pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 4:40pm:

Gaza is under occupation, and has no control over their economy - for the very simple reasons outlined earlier.

Gaza is under occupation

Gaza is an enclosure - in which Hamas/Palestinians are controlled and confined.

Israel, rightfully, wants to control
1/ the type of materials that enter Gaza and Judea and Samaria, and,
2/ who moves through the border crossings into Israeli territory.

Because Hamas openly states

that it [Hamas] wants to destroy the state of Israel, and to murder every Jew within its borders!

Yadda said.....
Quote:

Recent history in Gaza has demonstrated to the world, that Hamas is - NOT - trying to build a viable nation in Gaza.

Hamas's primary aim in Gaza, has always been,

to import military equipment into Gaza - so that Gaza becomes an armed ISLAMIC camp, from which to launch attacks against Gaza's - neighbour - Israel.

Observing the behaviour of Hamas in Gaza - the Israelis soon concluded - that permitting open borders in Gaza would simply facilitate [more quickly] the single objective that Hamas wanted to achieve in Gaza - which is, bringing war materiel into Gaza.

By now [2014] it must be obvious to everyone, except a dolt, that open borders in Gaza is simply going to facilitate - what Hamas wants to achieve [NOT NATION BUILDING] - BUT MORE CONFLICT [not less] WITH THE ISRAELIS.

Yadda said.....
Quote:

An analogy;

Letting PREDATORS, like crocodiles, live together is not 'persecution', it is 'natural selection'.

Crocodiles predating upon other crocodiles [and they do!], is not 'persecution', it is 'natural selection'.

So when at the zoo, you have a new crocodile [a predator] arrive, the zoo keeper should put the crocodile into the crocodile enclosure.

Persecution, would be putting the new crocodile in the sheep enclosure.

That would be persecution, for the sheep.

In the human family, moslems are predators.

ISLAM teaches moslems predation [....upon those deemed to be non-moslems].

ISLAM teaches moslems that predation is lawful and 'natural' for themselves.

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

Google;
house of war, Dar al-Harb

Google;
divisions of the world, in islam, Dar al-Harb

The human body too, is a means of confinement!! Wink

When your body dies..........

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #76 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:56pm

Just so we're clear FD - your saying that if China built a wall right around Australia, established a buffer zone inside the walled territory, blocked everything coming in and out except what they allow, control our airspace AND conduct regular incursions to destroy Australian infrastructure anywhere and everywhere - at will - that would not constitute a Chinese occupation?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #77 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:58pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:52pm:

Gaza is an enclosure - in which Hamas/Palestinians are controlled and confined.

Israel, rightfully, wants to control
1/ the type of materials that enter Gaza and Judea and Samaria, and,
2/ who moves through the border crossings into Israeli territory.

Otherwise known as an occupation.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #78 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:05pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:56pm:

Just so we're clear FD - your saying that if China built a wall right around Australia, established a buffer zone inside the walled territory, blocked everything coming in and out except what they allow, control our airspace AND conduct regular incursions to destroy Australian infrastructure anywhere and everywhere - at will - that would not constitute a Chinese occupation?

No no, it’s called Freeedom.

An occupation’s when your Muselman does it.

You know, like in Lakemba.

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« Last Edit: Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:20pm by Karnal »

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Yadda

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #79 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:56pm:

Just so we're clear FD - your saying that if China built a wall right around Australia, established a buffer zone inside the walled territory, blocked everything coming in and out except what they allow, control our airspace AND conduct regular incursions to destroy Australian infrastructure anywhere and everywhere - at will - that would not constitute a Chinese

occupation?

There is no Israeli occupation of Gaza.

An occupation, is what moslems are engaged in, within some Australian suburbs.

Areas within some Australian suburbs, which are effectively no-go zones, for those who are not moslems.

Europe has had a much longer experience of moslem 'integration' into its societies.....

Google;
muslim no go zones in europe

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #80 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:16pm

Fatah and Hamas are occupying Judea and Samaria.

Palestinians should, and have a 'natural' right of return to their ancient homeland, Jordan.

At teh conclusion of the British Mandate of Palestine, the land reserved for Arab/moslems [that during the Ottoman occupation, were resident in the Jewish designated area], was the land east of the Jordan river.

The land west of the Jordan river, was intended to be established as a homeland for the Jewish people.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine Reply #81 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:17pm Yadda: Gaza is not occupied - but (at least some of) Australia is. Yes, he really did say that.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #82 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:21pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:17pm:

Yadda: Gaza is not occupied - but (at least some of) Australia is.

Yes, he really did say that.

Yes, he did.

ISLAM is not compatible with Australian laws.

Moslems are not compatible with Australian society.

Yadda said....
Quote:

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

EVERY moslem, is a follower - of ISLAM.

EVERY moslem, is a member of the moslem community.

And whether the moslem refers to himself as being a member of,
Hamas,
or the Taliban,
or Al-Qaeda,
or Boko Haram,
or ISIS,
or Al Shabaab,
or [in Australia] Brothers for Life,

OR SIMPLY, AS BEING A, MOSLEM;

....the moslem is the member of 'a group of people' who choose to follow a philosophy [ISLAM], which teaches them [moslems], that it is lawful for them [moslems] to seek to subjugate [i.e. enslave] or murder all of 'disbelieving' mankind.

The right to 'lawfully' kill those who are not moslem [which ISLAM give sanction to], is what moslems choose, as being acceptable.....

Mild mannered - Mohammed Morsi -
Ex-President of Egypt

Watch the words coming out of his lips.....

"The Koran is our constitution"
"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"
"Jihad is our path"
"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFg

ISLAM sanctions [makes LAWFUL] murder.

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #83 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:23pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:09pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:56pm:

Just so we're clear FD - your saying that if China built a wall right around Australia, established a buffer zone inside the walled territory, blocked everything coming in and out except what they allow, control our airspace AND conduct regular incursions to destroy Australian infrastructure anywhere and everywhere - at will - that would not constitute a Chinese

occupation?

There is no Israeli occupation of Gaza.

An occupation, is what moslems are engaged in, within some Australian suburbs.

Areas within some Australian suburbs, which are effectively no-go zones, for those who are not moslems.

I know. I have to go through a checkpoint to visit the local IGA.

I blame the Parramatta City Council.

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Karnal

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #84 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:27pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:21pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:17pm:

Yadda: Gaza is not occupied - but (at least some of) Australia is.

Yes, he really did say that.

Yes, he did.

ISLAM is not compatible with Australian laws.

Moslems not compatible with Australian society.

They have their own planning laws, their own health regulations, their own local and state governments.

Typical.

I blame Morsi.

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freediver

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #85 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:56pm:

Just so we're clear FD - your saying that if China built a wall right around Australia, established a buffer zone inside the walled territory, blocked everything coming in and out except what they allow, control our airspace AND conduct regular incursions to destroy Australian infrastructure anywhere and everywhere - at will - that would not constitute a Chinese occupation?

No, because we would not be occupied, hence it would not be an occupation. Not if we continued to elect our own leaders and they continued to have effective authority within the country. If the Chinese were to blockade us, that would be a blockade.

There is a reason we have different words to describe different things.

The blockade of Gaza will continue while the rocket attacks continue, because otherwise it is inevitable that Hamas would get their hands on more powerful weapons to lob over the border. That, however, is not the same as an occupation. They Palestinians are still free to elect leaders with a charter of destroy Israel and who do their best to achieve that goal. Or not.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #86 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:55pm

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:39pm:

Not if we continued to elect our own leaders and they continued to have effective authority within the country. If the Chinese were to blockade us, that would be a blockade.

But its not just a blockade - they have buffer zones inside, and unilaterally decide what structures and infrastructure is allowed to remain - at will.

Human RIghts groups as well as the UN disagree with you.

from Isreali human rights organization BTselelm:

Quote:

The High Court has held contrary to Israel 's claim, stating that the creation and continuation of an occupation does not depend on the existence of an institution administering the lives of the local population, but only on the extent of its military control in the area. Furthermore, a certain area may be deemed occupied even if the army does not have a fixed presence throughout the whole area. Leading experts in humanitarian law maintain that effective control may also exist when the army controls key points in a particular area, reflecting its power over the entire area and preventing an alternative central government from formulating and carrying out its powers. The broad scope of Israeli control in the Gaza Strip, which exists despite the lack of a physical presence of IDF soldiers in the territory, creates a reasonable basis for the assumption that this control amounts to "effective control," such that the laws of occupation continue to apply.

http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/israels_obligations

Hardly any occupations in modern history existed without some sort of quasi-autonomous local regime. Iraq under the Bremer regime was a most unusual exception. The correct definition of a region subject to occupation under International Law is not dependent on the existence or otherwise of a local authority capable of running the day to day administration of the region - but rather the extent of a foreign military's "effective control" of the region in question. And in Gaza's case, the effective control Israel has over Gaza is total.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #87 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm

Quote:

But its not just a blockade - they have buffer zones inside, and unilaterally decide what structures and infrastructure is allowed to remain - at will.

Hamas fire rockets at Israel. Unilaterally. At will even, when they can get their hands on them. Israel fires back. Does this mean Israel is not a soveriegn state either?

You are making the same mistake as people who whine about us using the word terrorism to describe what Muslims do, and war to describe the invasions lead by the US. They insist this is some kind of propaganda, yet they are the only ones who seem to think terrorism=bad, war=good, therefor we must equate war with terrorism so people realise it is a bad thing.

A blocakade is different from an occupation. This does not mean occupation=bad, blockade=good. It is what it is.

Quote:

Hardly any occupations in modern history existed without some sort of quasi-autonomous local regime.

You have used that term before. Is Hamas "quasi-autonomous" of Israel? Do you think they are Israeli stooges? You keep dancing around this concept.

Quote:

The correct definition of a region subject to occupation under International Law is not dependent on the existence or otherwise of a local authority capable of running the day to day administration of the region

Sorry I didn't realise were playing at being lawyers. I thought we were just speaking English.

Quote:

but rather the extent of a foreign military's "effective control" of the region in question

That makes sense.

Quote:

And in Gaza's case, the effective control Israel has over Gaza is total.

That's just stupid. Israel has fairly tight control over the boarders. That's what a blockade is. To describe Israel's control over what goes on domestically as "total" is a complete rejection of reality.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #88 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 1:04am

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Hamas fire rockets at Israel. Unilaterally. At will even, when they can get their hands on them.

Well gee whiz FD - acts of resistance/terrorism tend to happen in what you term as occupations too. Does that mean all these occupations are not really occupations? Perhaps we should dispense with the term altogether then.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

A blocakade is different from an occupation. This does not mean occupation=bad, blockade=good. It is what it is.

Yes it is what it is - and by the standard definition under international law - and agreed by all the major international human rights organizations,, not to mention the UN itself - Gaza is occupied.

But I totally agree - saying its a blockade rather than an occupation shouldn't automatically lead us to think that its therefore "good" or even better than an occupation. But you are being entirely disingenuous here - it is patently obvious that you are guilty of this exact tendency. Your entire theme revolves around arguing that because there is no occupation, Hamas has no one to blame but themselves for the mess Gaza is in. Israel is not culpable because they "withdrew", and are no longer involved in the day to day business of Gaza - which would presumably be entirely different if Israel still maintained your idea of an occupation.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

You have used that term before. Is Hamas "quasi-autonomous" of Israel? Do you think they are Israeli stooges? You keep dancing around this concept.

I ignored it because I thought it was stating the bleeding obvious. Of course Hamas are not Israeli stooges.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Sorry I didn't realise were playing at being lawyers. I thought we were just speaking English.

It is what it is remember? If we are not using "lawyer speak" on such matters as what is and what isn't an occupation of a country (which can only be defined through international law), then we would agree to simply discard such meaningless notions. Gaza is "occupied" as per international law - there is a consensus on that. But of course you are free to discard international law and call it a monkey's bum for all I care.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

That's just stupid. Israel has fairly tight control over the boarders. That's what a blockade is. To describe Israel's control over what goes on domestically as "total" is a complete rejection of reality.

Isreal controls a buffer zone well *INSIDE* the borders - a point which you are doing your damnedest to ignore. Also, to describe *ANY* occupation as the occupier having "total" control of what goes on domestically - is a complete rejection of reality.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
Reply #89 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:47am

Quote:

Well gee whiz FD - acts of resistance/terrorism tend to happen in what you term as occupations too. Does that mean all these occupations are not really occupations? Perhaps we should dispense with the term altogether then.

Perhaps they are occupying each other. That makes more sense, doesn't it Gandalf?

Quote:

But you are being entirely disingenuous here - it is patently obvious that you are guilty of this exact tendency. Your entire theme revolves around arguing that because there is no occupation, Hamas has no one to blame but themselves for the mess Gaza is in. Israel is not culpable because they "withdrew", and are no longer involved in the day to day business of Gaza - which would presumably be entirely different if Israel still maintained your idea of an occupation.

It would mean the Palestinians aren't responsible for electing into power a bunch of scumbags whose only achievement is inflicting endless misery on them.

Quote:

I ignored it because I thought it was stating the bleeding obvious. Of course Hamas are not Israeli stooges.

So why do you keep pointing out historic use of "quasi-autonomous" regimes? Is Hamas "quasi-autonomous" of Israel?

Quote:

Gaza is "occupied" as per international law - there is a consensus on that.

Crap.

Quote:

Isreal controls a buffer zone well *INSIDE* the borders - a point which you are doing your damnedest to ignore.

There is ongoing conflict. Hence there is a no-man's land. Israel makes sure as much of that no-mans land as possible is on the other side of the border. That is still not an occupation, any more than if Israeli farmers moved away from the border that would mean Hamas is occupying Israel.

Quote:

Also, to describe *ANY* occupation as the occupier having "total" control of what goes on domestically - is a complete rejection of reality.

I agree, totally. Yet that is exactly how you described Israel's "occupation".

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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