Australian Politics Forum - Womens Biggest Issues Are ...

... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ... Reply #735 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:56pm The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:55pm: All female voices should be heard, regardless of what they say Funny then, that you want all the men to bugger off.
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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ... Reply #736 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:58pm I do listen when you talk, and that's the problem - you talk such utter crap that it can't go unchallenged.
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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ... Reply #737 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:15pm Back on topic: IMO Womens lack of agency, responsibility and self awareness is their biggest issue. But due to this deficiency, they are incapable of recognising it. This leads to blaming everything on fictional constructs like "THE PATRIARCHY"^tm.
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The Niftiest Bear

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Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ...
Reply #738 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:22pm

... wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:56pm:

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:55pm:

All female voices should be heard, regardless of what they say

Funny then, that you want all the men to bugger off.

I never once said that "all men should bugger off". I said that the men on here who DO silence women need to stop, and leave. If you won't be part of the solution you're being part of the problem.

So amused that you're highlighting what I said before --- you're a prime example of the Ancient Douchebag Proverb.

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The Niftiest Bear Junior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 71 Gender:	Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ... Reply #739 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:24pm ... wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:15pm: Back on topic: IMO Womens lack of agency, responsibility and self awareness is their biggest issue. But due to this deficiency, they are incapable of recognising it. This leads to blaming everything on fictional constructs like "THE PATRIARCHY"^tm. *fictitious FTFY
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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ...
Reply #740 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:25pm

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:23pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 5:12am:

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 6^th, 2015 at 3:56am:

She's a very interesting person.

I've been studying feminist political theory lately, and recently discovered anarcha-feminism. Women like Emma Goldman and Voltairine De Cleyre are so fascinating, and not talked about save for specialised women's studies topics. I also find it interesting that men like Foucault are discussed at large for their contributions to feminism, but the women are largely forgotten.

I have a sneaky suspicion I know what might be behind this.

(Hint!! It begins with "P" and ends with "atriarchy"!)

Foucault is discussed at length because he's a post-structuralist, just as the feminists of the second and third wave are.

What's your point exactly? I said that Foucault is discussed more often than feminists in the same discipline. What does him being post-structuralist have to do with anything? And, more to the point, why is he discussed when other post-structuralist women and feminists are not? Why does he get to have his name everywhere, when second and third wave feminists (gosh I hate the whole "wave" thing, feminism isn't like the ocean -- -waves recede and return, feminism has never done that; once it came, it stayed) are lumped into the same basket? Why is Philipa Rothfield's name not common knowledge in universities? Jana Sawecki? Betty Friedan? Why is it that the only time women are ever mentioned in sociology is the token woman centred lecture? I have read and heard more on Engels, Durkheim, Marx, etc. enough to last a life time -- where are the women in academia? Why are they swept under the rug when their contributions are just as important, if not more so because they have further and deeper knowledge on matters these old dead white men could never understand?

They're probably not mentioned as often as those men you stated because they offer nothing original. Marx, Durkheim, and to a lesser extent, Foucault, were the originators of certain perspectives, or thereabouts. Second and third wave feminists offer nothing that hadn't been said a few thousand times already. Most feminists are carbon copies of Marx's class conflict converted to gender/sex conflict - the same theory of "oppression" is used, but has simply replaced bourgeois with men, proletariat with women, and class with gender/sex. The sociological examination of 'power structures' feminists are obsessed with was popularised by Foucault, but can be traced back to Nietzsche. Was anything written by feminists around the time of Marx, Durkheim, and Nietzsche that rivals what they had to say?

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ... Reply #741 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:28pm Both are correct, but thank you anyway.
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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ...
Reply #742 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:29pm

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:30pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 5:30am:

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 12:16am:

Agnes wrote on Jun 10^th, 2015 at 11:15pm:

why are men allowed to post here but we cannot post in the Men's Shed????

Maybe what we need to do is use their tactics against them; make a bunch of male socks and spam their board? That might get the mods attention and get us some safety.

Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire.

Don't you mean The Tool Shed?
If you look at what's discussed, it's basically just hobbies or stuff men do in their spare time. The difference is that in this forum men are implicated in every post. It's a given that men are going to defend the claims made against them.

The difference between here and THE TOOL SHED then would probably be that we aren't talking about hobbies. We are discussing serious issues that women face. Besides, who said this was about you? Are YOU raping women? Are YOU beating your wife? Are YOU harassing women on the street? If no, then how is this about you? This thread contains the collective experience of ALL women, this is NOT about the actions of ALL MEN.

This is not about you.

As I said, if you implicate men in your rants, then they are going to respond. Perhaps instead of making broad statements you should name the particular people responsible. This would take gender/sex out of the situation and examine the circumstances of the incident in question.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ...
Reply #743 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:31pm

mothra wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:38pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 10^th, 2015 at 8:58pm:

mothra wrote on Jun 6^th, 2015 at 6:24am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 4^th, 2015 at 5:38pm:

Agnes wrote on Jun 4^th, 2015 at 3:41pm:

If this thread is anything to go by the biggest issue women have is other women..serious!

Yes. Domestic violence and rape statistics pale in comparison to the mental torture women force on other women.

1 in three women face domestic violence.

1 in 5 women have been sexually assaulted.

Sure, women being bitchy to each other compares.

I question the methodologies used in gathering such statistics.
You give 3 links (reply 650-651). The first two offer no information on how the statistics were gathered, and the third link only surveys women.

A few years ago I taught a course that had domestic violence as part of one module. The thing I noticed about all the journal articles supplied for the students to read, was that only women were interviewed and/or surveyed. It's a given that if you only survey one gender/sex (and only small samples as well) that you're only going to get their viewpoint. Moreover, such interviews and surveys often lead the interviewee. Interviewers usually know how to draw out the answers they want for their surveys.

Of course only women were surveyed to gather information for a poll on how many women experience DV or sexual assault!

What would be the point of asking men?

The point would be to see what the statistics are on the other side.

Some interesting research would be to see how many surveys and interviews of women have been done compared to that of men.

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The Niftiest Bear

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Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ...
Reply #744 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:49pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:23pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 5:12am:

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 6^th, 2015 at 3:56am:

She's a very interesting person.

I've been studying feminist political theory lately, and recently discovered anarcha-feminism. Women like Emma Goldman and Voltairine De Cleyre are so fascinating, and not talked about save for specialised women's studies topics. I also find it interesting that men like Foucault are discussed at large for their contributions to feminism, but the women are largely forgotten.

I have a sneaky suspicion I know what might be behind this.

(Hint!! It begins with "P" and ends with "atriarchy"!)

Foucault is discussed at length because he's a post-structuralist, just as the feminists of the second and third wave are.

What's your point exactly? I said that Foucault is discussed more often than feminists in the same discipline. What does him being post-structuralist have to do with anything? And, more to the point, why is he discussed when other post-structuralist women and feminists are not? Why does he get to have his name everywhere, when second and third wave feminists (gosh I hate the whole "wave" thing, feminism isn't like the ocean -- -waves recede and return, feminism has never done that; once it came, it stayed) are lumped into the same basket? Why is Philipa Rothfield's name not common knowledge in universities? Jana Sawecki? Betty Friedan? Why is it that the only time women are ever mentioned in sociology is the token woman centred lecture? I have read and heard more on Engels, Durkheim, Marx, etc. enough to last a life time -- where are the women in academia? Why are they swept under the rug when their contributions are just as important, if not more so because they have further and deeper knowledge on matters these old dead white men could never understand?

They're probably not mentioned as often as those men you stated because they offer nothing original. Marx, Durkheim, and to a lesser extent, Foucault, were the originators of certain perspectives, or thereabouts. Second and third wave feminists offer nothing that hadn't been said a few thousand times already. Most feminists are carbon copies of Marx's class conflict converted to gender/sex conflict - the same theory of "oppression" is used, but has simply replaced bourgeois with men, proletariat with women, and class with gender/sex. The sociological examination of 'power structures' feminists are obsessed with was popularised by Foucault, but can be traced back to Nietzsche. Was anything written by feminists around the time of Marx, Durkheim, and Nietzsche that rivals what they had to say?

By that logic then anything written by any man since Marx should also be ignored -- if he is the be all and end all of sociological theory. You're presenting a straw man argument, you cannot claim that all of feminism rests on Marx. Feminism existed long before him, if not in name then in theory --women have been agitating for change since the dawn of oppression. Besides, even if that is the case what's your point? Pretty sure that's how all theories go; someone says something, someone else sees potential so they change it and expand on it. If anything the fact that these feminists are taking Marx's ideas further than he did should show that that he was limited in his views. And then there's the theory that has nothing to do with him at all! More reason that women in philosophy/sociology/theoretical scholars in general should be listened to and taught about.

By the way --- if second and third wave (ugh, that word again) feminists are saying these things that have been said a thousand times before ---- maybe there's some legitimacy to it? Maybe we know what we're talking about?

Just because nothing is easily accessible does not mean it was not written/thought. It's like why JK Rowling write under initials; she believed that no one would buy her books if they knew she was female. Anonymous was a woman.

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The Niftiest Bear

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Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ...
Reply #745 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:55pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:29pm:

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:30pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 5:30am:

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 12:16am:

Agnes wrote on Jun 10^th, 2015 at 11:15pm:

why are men allowed to post here but we cannot post in the Men's Shed????

Maybe what we need to do is use their tactics against them; make a bunch of male socks and spam their board? That might get the mods attention and get us some safety.

Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire.

Don't you mean The Tool Shed?
If you look at what's discussed, it's basically just hobbies or stuff men do in their spare time. The difference is that in this forum men are implicated in every post. It's a given that men are going to defend the claims made against them.

The difference between here and THE TOOL SHED then would probably be that we aren't talking about hobbies. We are discussing serious issues that women face. Besides, who said this was about you? Are YOU raping women? Are YOU beating your wife? Are YOU harassing women on the street? If no, then how is this about you? This thread contains the collective experience of ALL women, this is NOT about the actions of ALL MEN.

This is not about you.

As I said, if you implicate men in your rants, then they are going to respond. Perhaps instead of making broad statements you should name the particular people responsible. This would take gender/sex out of the situation and examine the circumstances of the incident in question.

Oh, yes ofc. I'll just go through and find all the names of every single male street harasser, domestic abuser, and rapist because that'll be so easy to find and accessible Roll Eyes

The only reason that a man would be offended by the idea of "all men", or even assume that we are in fact discussing "all men" is if they have something to hide. If I say "men commit rape" I am in no way suggesting that ALL men commit rape or that women do not; I am simply stating that men have and do commit rape. Is it poorly worded? yes. Is it stating that every single man has committed rape? no. That would be facetious. You're getting caught up on the smallest details --- perhaps you should focus less on the "man" part and more on the "women are being raped" part. That seems more important to me at least.

So are you hiding something? Are you a woman beater? Got something to fess up to?

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mothra

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Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ...
Reply #746 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:55pm

... wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:15pm:

Back on topic:

IMO Womens lack of agency, responsibility and self awareness is their biggest issue. But due to this deficiency, they are incapable of recognising it. This leads to blaming everything on fictional constructs like "THE PATRIARCHY"^tm.

Lack of agency. Why do you think that is Honky? Could it perhaps be due to diminished levels of reflexivity resultant from the existence of a Patriarchy? I think so. Thank you for seeing that at last.

Responsibility? Really? Women wrote the book on responsibilty. We are, according to original sin, responsible for men's very thoughts. We have been persecuted through the ages as a result. In the modern era, we are still responsible for what we wear, how we act, what time we stay out until, where we go, and who we interact with. Men, it would seem, bear none of this responsibility yet are mere subjects to their urges.

Women also bear the chief responsibility for child rearing. A non-maternal mother is considered an anathema ... an non-paternal father is considered trapped for 18 years. Would you not say that child rearing is indeed the greatest responsibility of them all?

Self awareness? From puberty every girl is acutely self aware. She needs to be. She goes from being a child to the object of sexual objectification seemingly overnight. I remember being 12 and having a group of business men follow me around the city,talking in lurid detail about what they wanted to do to me. I was vastly self aware.

One could comfortably argue that eating disorders are a corruption of self awareness. Body dysmorphia. General obsession with appearance.

Women are acutely self aware because we are largely quantified by how we superficially appear. It causes us to be profoundly introspective. From, as i said, a very young age. There are not a great diversity of women in the media to comfort ourselves with. Not a great range of ages. Not a wide range of ages. Not a particularly braod set of opinions either, for that matter.

All of this is attributable to the patriarchy you deride as fictitional. Silly you. But then again, you're not the most perceptive soul.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ...
Reply #747 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 5:12pm

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:49pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 3:23pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 5:12am:

The Niftiest Bear wrote on Jun 6^th, 2015 at 3:56am:

She's a very interesting person.

I've been studying feminist political theory lately, and recently discovered anarcha-feminism. Women like Emma Goldman and Voltairine De Cleyre are so fascinating, and not talked about save for specialised women's studies topics. I also find it interesting that men like Foucault are discussed at large for their contributions to feminism, but the women are largely forgotten.

I have a sneaky suspicion I know what might be behind this.

(Hint!! It begins with "P" and ends with "atriarchy"!)

Foucault is discussed at length because he's a post-structuralist, just as the feminists of the second and third wave are.

What's your point exactly? I said that Foucault is discussed more often than feminists in the same discipline. What does him being post-structuralist have to do with anything? And, more to the point, why is he discussed when other post-structuralist women and feminists are not? Why does he get to have his name everywhere, when second and third wave feminists (gosh I hate the whole "wave" thing, feminism isn't like the ocean -- -waves recede and return, feminism has never done that; once it came, it stayed) are lumped into the same basket? Why is Philipa Rothfield's name not common knowledge in universities? Jana Sawecki? Betty Friedan? Why is it that the only time women are ever mentioned in sociology is the token woman centred lecture? I have read and heard more on Engels, Durkheim, Marx, etc. enough to last a life time -- where are the women in academia? Why are they swept under the rug when their contributions are just as important, if not more so because they have further and deeper knowledge on matters these old dead white men could never understand?

They're probably not mentioned as often as those men you stated because they offer nothing original. Marx, Durkheim, and to a lesser extent, Foucault, were the originators of certain perspectives, or thereabouts. Second and third wave feminists offer nothing that hadn't been said a few thousand times already. Most feminists are carbon copies of Marx's class conflict converted to gender/sex conflict - the same theory of "oppression" is used, but has simply replaced bourgeois with men, proletariat with women, and class with gender/sex. The sociological examination of 'power structures' feminists are obsessed with was popularised by Foucault, but can be traced back to Nietzsche. Was anything written by feminists around the time of Marx, Durkheim, and Nietzsche that rivals what they had to say?

By that logic then anything written by any man since Marx should also be ignored -- if he is the be all and end all of sociological theory. You're presenting a straw man argument, you cannot claim that all of feminism rests on Marx. Feminism existed long before him, if not in name then in theory --women have been agitating for change since the dawn of oppression. Besides, even if that is the case what's your point? Pretty sure that's how all theories go; someone says something, someone else sees potential so they change it and expand on it. If anything the fact that these feminists are taking Marx's ideas further than he did should show that that he was limited in his views. And then there's the theory that has nothing to do with him at all! More reason that women in philosophy/sociology/theoretical scholars in general should be listened to and taught about.

By the way --- if second and third wave (ugh, that word again) feminists are saying these things that have been said a thousand times before ---- maybe there's some legitimacy to it? Maybe we know what we're talking about?

Just because nothing is easily accessible does not mean it was not written/thought. It's like why JK Rowling write under initials; she believed that no one would buy her books if they knew she was female. Anonymous was a woman.

I'll take that as an admission there were no feminist writers that had anything interesting or innovative to say before Marx, Durheim, and Nietzsche. You claim women have been fighting since the dawn of oppression so it shouldn't have been too hard to give some examples.

When does the "dawn of oppression" begin, by the way?

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Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ...
Reply #748 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 5:12pm

mothra wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:55pm:

Lack of agency. Why do you think that is Honky? Could it perhaps be due to diminished levels of reflexivity resultant from the existence of a Patriarchy?

No, I think it's because deep down inside, you know you're "just a girl". It's hardwired into you, regardless of how much false bravado and moxie you're injected with via the media. Happy to twirl your hair and play on that when it's in your favour, then turn around and claim to be equally or more competent than anyone.

mothra wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:55pm:

In the modern era, we are still responsible for what we wear, how we act, what time we stay out until, where we go, and who we interact with.

er yeah. Who else would be responsible for how you act and what you do? Are you a human being or an automaton?

The fact you think this is anything less than universal is proof of how little agency you have - everything is always someone elses responsibility/problem.

"man up and take reponsibility" is a common refrain, but you've never heard anyone say "woman up" have you?

mothra wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:55pm:

Self awareness? From puberty every girl is acutely self aware.

The word you're looking for is self CENTRED/self absorbed, not self aware. Self awareness is recognising how you feel and why. Tip: If you think THE PATRIARCHY^tm is the answer to the "why", you're not self aware.

mothra wrote on Jun 11^th, 2015 at 4:55pm:

Women also bear the chief responsibility for child rearing.

Yes. You have one job and that's an unbearable burden? Meanwhile, men built and maintain everything you see around you.

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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 35146 Gender:	Re: Womens Biggest Issues Are ... Reply #749 - Jun 11^th, 2015 at 5:13pm Some woman really did a number on you, didn't they Honky?
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