Australian Politics Forum - ex Labor MP a soviet mole

Datalife

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 2405
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #45 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:26pm

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:22am:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:12am:

We weren't at war with the Soviet Union. Nor were we at war with North Vietnam. Your point is nonsense.

So, what you going to do, dig him up and put him on trial? Cheesy

You need to read up a bit on the Cold War, proxy wars and a concept which I know luvvies find hard to understand, competition or competitiveness or just being forewarned.

That falls into the trap of believing Soviet rhetoric that Communism was one big happy camp which they controlled. The reality was considerably different, the Vietnamese weren't under the control of the Soviet Union any more than the Chinese were. You more than likely still believe in the Domino Theory! Grin

Not falling into any rhetoric, America and the Sovs were engaged in an undeclared war for influence and supremacy and engaged in combat via proxys. It's not a hard concept to understand.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for the soviet position and their mindset post the Second World War and being threatened by NATO expansion and aggressive aerial and submarine patrols. They felt themselves to be threatened, surrounded, and at a technological disadvantage.

Back to top

"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #46 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:29pm

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:26pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:22am:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:12am:

We weren't at war with the Soviet Union. Nor were we at war with North Vietnam. Your point is nonsense.

So, what you going to do, dig him up and put him on trial? Cheesy

You need to read up a bit on the Cold War, proxy wars and a concept which I know luvvies find hard to understand, competition or competitiveness or just being forewarned.

That falls into the trap of believing Soviet rhetoric that Communism was one big happy camp which they controlled. The reality was considerably different, the Vietnamese weren't under the control of the Soviet Union any more than the Chinese were. You more than likely still believe in the Domino Theory! Grin

Not falling into any rhetoric, America and the Sovs were engaged in an undeclared war for influence and supremacy and engaged in combat via proxys. It's not a hard concept to understand.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for the soviet position and their mindset post the Second World War and being threatened by NATO expansion and aggressive aerial and submarine patrols. They felt themselves to be threatened, surrounded, and at a technological disadvantage.

Russia has been expansionist for centuries. post WW2 control of eastern Europe proved the point. NATO wasn't invading them, the reverse was true. they are architects of their own troubles.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

|dev|null

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 4434
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #47 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:38pm

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:26pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:22am:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:12am:

We weren't at war with the Soviet Union. Nor were we at war with North Vietnam. Your point is nonsense.

So, what you going to do, dig him up and put him on trial? Cheesy

You need to read up a bit on the Cold War, proxy wars and a concept which I know luvvies find hard to understand, competition or competitiveness or just being forewarned.

That falls into the trap of believing Soviet rhetoric that Communism was one big happy camp which they controlled. The reality was considerably different, the Vietnamese weren't under the control of the Soviet Union any more than the Chinese were. You more than likely still believe in the Domino Theory! Grin

Not falling into any rhetoric, America and the Sovs were engaged in an undeclared war for influence and supremacy and engaged in combat via proxys. It's not a hard concept to understand.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for the soviet position and their mindset post the Second World War and being threatened by NATO expansion and aggressive aerial and submarine patrols. They felt themselves to be threatened, surrounded, and at a technological disadvantage.

My goodness, what a Luvvie prog position! Making apologies for Soviet aggression! How unlike you DL!

So, it's something we can agree on but the point is, we were not at war with either North Vietnam or the Soviet Union so this MP wasn't committing treason any more than William McMahon was when he was handing over trade information to the Japanese MITI in the early 1960s. Or various Liberal or Labor senior figures were when handing over information to the CIA in the 1980s and 1990s. If you want to put this pretty lowly dead MP on trial for Treason then you'll have a long queue of others up before the beaks who are still alive and kicking!

Back to top

"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

IP Logged

Datalife

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 2405
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #48 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:41pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:29pm:

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:26pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:22am:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:12am:

We weren't at war with the Soviet Union. Nor were we at war with North Vietnam. Your point is nonsense.

So, what you going to do, dig him up and put him on trial? Cheesy

You need to read up a bit on the Cold War, proxy wars and a concept which I know luvvies find hard to understand, competition or competitiveness or just being forewarned.

That falls into the trap of believing Soviet rhetoric that Communism was one big happy camp which they controlled. The reality was considerably different, the Vietnamese weren't under the control of the Soviet Union any more than the Chinese were. You more than likely still believe in the Domino Theory! Grin

Not falling into any rhetoric, America and the Sovs were engaged in an undeclared war for influence and supremacy and engaged in combat via proxys. It's not a hard concept to understand.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for the soviet position and their mindset post the Second World War and being threatened by NATO expansion and aggressive aerial and submarine patrols. They felt themselves to be threatened, surrounded, and at a technological disadvantage.

Russia has been expansionist for centuries. post WW2 control of eastern Europe proved the point. NATO wasn't invading them, the reverse was true. they are architects of their own troubles.

I don't disagree, it is possible to be both expansionist and feel threatened and to assess "NATO wasn't invading them" you need to look at it from the perspective of the country/leadership looking out.

Back to top

"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007

IP Logged

|dev|null

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 4434
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #49 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:43pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:29pm:

Russia has been expansionist for centuries. post WW2 control of eastern Europe proved the point. NATO wasn't invading them, the reverse was true. they are architects of their own troubles.

You don't think the Soviet control of Eastern Europe was justified by three major invasions of Russia over the previous 150 years? The US containment policy? The US encirclement of the USSR with American allies and right-wing funded dictatorships? The US rhetoric which was pretty damn fierce during most of the Cold War? Grin

Back to top

"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

IP Logged

Datalife Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2405 Gender:	Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole Reply #50 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:49pm \|dev\|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:38pm: My goodness, what a Luvvie prog position! Making apologies for Soviet aggression! How unlike you DL! Not unlike me at all. I possess perspective and understand nuance, difference and motivations. In my world not everything is eeeeeeeqqqqquuuuaaaaal.
Back to top	"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy". Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007 IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #51 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:03pm

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:41pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:29pm:

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:26pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:22am:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:12am:

We weren't at war with the Soviet Union. Nor were we at war with North Vietnam. Your point is nonsense.

So, what you going to do, dig him up and put him on trial? Cheesy

You need to read up a bit on the Cold War, proxy wars and a concept which I know luvvies find hard to understand, competition or competitiveness or just being forewarned.

That falls into the trap of believing Soviet rhetoric that Communism was one big happy camp which they controlled. The reality was considerably different, the Vietnamese weren't under the control of the Soviet Union any more than the Chinese were. You more than likely still believe in the Domino Theory! Grin

Not falling into any rhetoric, America and the Sovs were engaged in an undeclared war for influence and supremacy and engaged in combat via proxys. It's not a hard concept to understand.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for the soviet position and their mindset post the Second World War and being threatened by NATO expansion and aggressive aerial and submarine patrols. They felt themselves to be threatened, surrounded, and at a technological disadvantage.

Russia has been expansionist for centuries. post WW2 control of eastern Europe proved the point. NATO wasn't invading them, the reverse was true. they are architects of their own troubles.

I don't disagree, it is possible to be both expansionist and feel threatened and to assess "NATO wasn't invading them" you need to look at it from the perspective of the country/leadership looking out.

you mean PARANOID leadership? hypocritical leadership??

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #52 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:04pm

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:43pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:29pm:

Russia has been expansionist for centuries. post WW2 control of eastern Europe proved the point. NATO wasn't invading them, the reverse was true. they are architects of their own troubles.

You don't think the Soviet control of Eastern Europe was justified by three major invasions of Russia over the previous 150 years? The US containment policy? The US encirclement of the USSR with American allies and right-wing funded dictatorships? The US rhetoric which was pretty damn fierce during most of the Cold War? Grin

since when was invasion and subjugation of entire countries JUSTIFIED? who are you? Rhiannons love child??

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

____

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 33410
Australia
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #53 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:08pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:04pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:43pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:29pm:

Russia has been expansionist for centuries. post WW2 control of eastern Europe proved the point. NATO wasn't invading them, the reverse was true. they are architects of their own troubles.

You don't think the Soviet control of Eastern Europe was justified by three major invasions of Russia over the previous 150 years? The US containment policy? The US encirclement of the USSR with American allies and right-wing funded dictatorships? The US rhetoric which was pretty damn fierce during most of the Cold War? Grin

since when was invasion and subjugation of entire countries JUSTIFIED? who are you? Rhiannons love child??

Nice of you to condemn england's invasion ... or where you talking more about israel.

Back to top

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #54 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:12pm

____ wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:04pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:43pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:29pm:

Russia has been expansionist for centuries. post WW2 control of eastern Europe proved the point. NATO wasn't invading them, the reverse was true. they are architects of their own troubles.

You don't think the Soviet control of Eastern Europe was justified by three major invasions of Russia over the previous 150 years? The US containment policy? The US encirclement of the USSR with American allies and right-wing funded dictatorships? The US rhetoric which was pretty damn fierce during most of the Cold War? Grin

since when was invasion and subjugation of entire countries JUSTIFIED? who are you? Rhiannons love child??

Nice of you to condemn england's invasion ... or where you talking more about israel.

englands invasion of what country??? or are you stupid enough to call the Normandy landings an 'invasion'?

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Datalife

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 2405
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #55 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:12pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

you mean PARANOID leadership? hypocritical leadership??

That is in the mix as well, though you could argue they had good reason to be paranoid. And of course if you are a dictator and have to imprison your own citizens to prevent them leaving, then controlling the media and presenting an external threat is to your benefit.

Back to top

"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007

IP Logged

____

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 33410
Australia
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #56 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:14pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:12pm:

____ wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:04pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:43pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:29pm:

Russia has been expansionist for centuries. post WW2 control of eastern Europe proved the point. NATO wasn't invading them, the reverse was true. they are architects of their own troubles.

You don't think the Soviet control of Eastern Europe was justified by three major invasions of Russia over the previous 150 years? The US containment policy? The US encirclement of the USSR with American allies and right-wing funded dictatorships? The US rhetoric which was pretty damn fierce during most of the Cold War? Grin

since when was invasion and subjugation of entire countries JUSTIFIED? who are you? Rhiannons love child??

Nice of you to condemn england's invasion ... or where you talking more about israel.

englands invasion of what country??? or are you stupid enough to call the Normandy landings an 'invasion'?

Australia to name one.

And what of Israel. I thought you supported that invasion. Have you backflipped?

Back to top

IP Logged

|dev|null

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 4434
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #57 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:26pm

Datalife wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

My goodness, what a Luvvie prog position! Making apologies for Soviet aggression! How unlike you DL!

Not unlike me at all. I possess perspective and understand nuance, difference and motivations.

In my world not everything is eeeeeeeqqqqquuuuaaaaal.

Nor in anyone else's DL. You create a strawman argument to knock down. Grin

Back to top

"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

IP Logged

buzzanddidj

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 14211
Eganstown, via Daylesford, VIC
Gender: male

Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole
Reply #58 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:27pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 10:13am:

Kat wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 9:59am:

The idiocy is strong on the Right this morning.

so the fact that a Labor MP was a soviet mole is of no consequence to you?

What happened in the "cold war" - fifty years ago ?

Not in the SLIGHTEST - aside from being a historic "curio"

I doubt the
"ruskies"
would have had much use for the thoughts of the Labor back-bencher from Hunter - at the time - but humoured him, all the same

The Cambridge Five
Rich, privledged - and the world's most famous Russian spies

... a thought to consider*

When you hear of a "spy scandal" or "sex scandal" in in Australia - thoughts AUTOMATICALLY drift to
"the left"

But in the UK - be it "spy scandal", call girls, call boys, cross-dressers, look no further than
"the right"
and sometimes
"the aristocracy"

I put it down to the
Coriolis effect

Back to top

'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

IP Logged

\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: ex Labor MP a soviet mole Reply #59 - Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:27pm longweekend58 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 1:03pm: you mean PARANOID leadership? hypocritical leadership?? You really should talk about Washington in that way. It's wrude!
Back to top	"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013. "we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions." Freediver, 2007. IP Logged