Australian Politics Forum - Number 1 wally

Brian Ross

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #30 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 10:14pm

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

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I am suggesting that you could go some way towards attempting to understand and accept ordinary, everyday, moderate Muslims more and not reject them out of hand merely because they are of that faith. That rejection is what alienates them and drives them into the arms of the fundamentalists, FD.

I do exactly that, every day.

Really?

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No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".

Many Muslims are.

Ah, I note the sudden use of a qualification there, FD!

Suddenly it goes from all Muslims to "many Muslims".

How many? Do you have firm numbers? Or are these like Adamant's statistics, something you're extracting from some orifice or other? Roll Eyes

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Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?

The Pew society did a pretty good job of asking entire communities, with some rather disturbing results. I stick to asking individuals. I get pretty much the same results.

Yet, when I ask individuals and groups of Muslims I get very different results, FD. I've served with, worked with, studied with and taught Muslims for over 30 years, and none have expressed the opinions you claim are commonplace amongst Muslims.

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I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section.

Yes you have. You were afraid to talk about it with them.

A single word describes my opinion of that claim, FD. It starts with B and describes bull excreta. Roll Eyes

How the hell would you know what I've said or not said to the many Muslims I've known over the years? Roll Eyes

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You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.

You really should take a look at that Pew survey.

Which one? I know of several. They provide interesting snapshots of Muslim opinion, FD. That opinion, like all communities' opinion changes according to events. I'd hope you wouldn't assume that one survey is the be all and end all of Muslim opinion? Roll Eyes

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It's also obvious you've never grown up with southern European immigrants

Wogs? I know how you feel Brian.

Racist as well as bigoted? Oh, my, FD, you reveal so much... Roll Eyes

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Many of their kids in the 1960s and 70s were tearaways, often in trouble with the law, involved in minor crime, drug dealing, etc., as they rebelled against both their parents and the wider community from which they felt alienated.

Did they set up a southern european state in southern europe where they raped all the women who were the wrong type of wog? Because then you could draw a parallel with ISIS and Muslims, couldn't you? That would be convenient.

Forgotten the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, FD? Everything IS is doing or has done in Syria and Iraq, happened or worse, in Yugoslavia when that country broke up. IS has yet to build concentration camps though, as far as I am aware, where they set out to starve "undesirable" people (primarily men and boys) to death. Amazing how myopic your view of history is, isn't it, FD? Roll Eyes

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Perhaps greater funding for community organisations?

Awesome idea. Give Muslims money to stop them being terrorists. Like sit down money. We can call it no-blowing-up-bus money. Maybe they could use it to educate their children, to replace all the federal government funds siphoned off by the AFIC and various other highly respected Muslim community leaders.

No, FD, that is not what I just proposed and your deliberate misconstruing simply shows the depths of your hatred for everybody Muslim. Try again and read it slowly this time with an open mind, OK? Roll Eyes

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Greater provision of social services? Help for their parents and their community leaders to shore up their authority? Why not ask the Muslims? I'm sure they could tell you what they need or want.

I think your first answer was best - more money. Who doesn't want that? Has there ever been a problem we couldn't solve with handouts?

Yes. Many. However money is often the oil which greases the wheels of society, FD. Perhaps you should remember that when Government announces that it's funding some CWA initiative or community festival? Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #31 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 1:18am

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

Did they set up a southern european state in southern europe where they raped all the women who were the wrong type of wog? Because then you could draw a parallel with ISIS and Muslims, couldn't you? That would be convenient.

Fascinating. Its like all that ethnic cleansing/genocide/wholesale slaughter and destruction in the former Yugoslavia during the 90s just never happened.

... that is, to use FD's logic...

....of course on planet earth we're talking about immigrants to Australia, the vast majority of whom had nothing to do with such affairs - and in many cases were fleeing them.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #32 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 1:21am

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:59am:

This is a good point Gandalf. Just as born again Christians are more annoying, born again Muslims are more likely to blow up a bus.

So all we have to do to stop buses blowing up is stop Islam spreading?

Its saying that established, mainstream islam is more likely to deter violence and extremism - not encourage it.

Figured that might be a bit too difficult for you.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #33 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 1:24am True, but Iraq is hardly Yugoslavia. It’s a demokracy, remember? It’s on the road to becoming the next South Korea. FD said.
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freediver

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #34 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:30am

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Suddenly it goes from all Muslims to "many Muslims".

When was it "all Muslims"?

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How many? Do you have firm numbers? Or are these like Adamant's statistics, something you're extracting from some orifice or other?

Like I keep telling you, the Pew survey is a good place to start.

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Yet, when I ask individuals and groups of Muslims I get very different results, FD. I've served with, worked with, studied with and taught Muslims for over 30 years, and none have expressed the opinions you claim are commonplace amongst Muslims.

I've seen your efforts Brian. You pretty much beg them to lie to you or change the subject. They offer you a few meaningless platitudes, and suddenly the most backward Muslim is your best friend who you stand up for because he is just like you.

Every time you make this claim about a specific view, I ask you, did you ever actually ask them about it? Your response, silence. Just like Gandalf's efforts to divine the opinion of Malaysian Muslims on executing apostates and stoning adulterers to death, without inconvenient details like asking them what their opinion is.

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How the hell would you know what I've said or not said to the many Muslims I've known over the years?

I've seen how you work from the safety of an internet forum, and can only imagine it is even worse in person.

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Forgotten the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, FD? Everything IS is doing or has done in Syria and Iraq, happened or worse, in Yugoslavia when that country broke up. IS has yet to build concentration camps though, as far as I am aware, where they set out to starve "undesirable" people (primarily men and boys) to death. Amazing how myopic your view of history is, isn't it, FD?

So how many Australian wogs felt it their religious duty to go over to join in the rape fest?

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No, FD, that is not what I just proposed and your deliberate misconstruing simply shows the depths of your hatred for everybody Muslim. Try again and read it slowly this time with an open mind, OK?

Funnily enough, it still says the same stupid thing. Give Muslims money to stop them being terrorists. Like sit down money. We can call it no-blowing-up-bus money. Maybe they could use it to educate their children, to replace all the federal government funds siphoned off by the AFIC and various other highly respected Muslim community leaders.

We could call it jizya money. I jizya dis money soze ya leave ya machete at home.

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Yes. Many. However money is often the oil which greases the wheels of society, FD. Perhaps you should remember that when Government announces that it's funding some CWA initiative or community festival?

Good point. The CWA never blows up buses. I think you're onto a winner here Brian.

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....of course on planet earth we're talking about immigrants to Australia, the vast majority of whom had nothing to do with such affairs - and in many cases were fleeing them.

Only what, 60 or so of them? That's reassuring isn't it Gandalf? The vast majority of Australian Muslims are not head hacking rapists ready to jump on the next plane plane to defend the new Caliphate, 7 year old son in tow. Move along people, nothing to see here.

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« Last Edit: Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:36am by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #35 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:02am Which Muslims have you sought opinions from, FD, and what questions did you ask? I’m curious.
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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #36 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:15am Karnal wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:02am: Which Muslims have you sought opinions from, FD, and what questions did you ask? I’m curious. FD's response...
Back to top	"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013. "we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions." Freediver, 2007. IP Logged

polite_gandalf

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #37 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:33am

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:30am:

Only what, 60 or so of them? That's reassuring isn't it Gandalf?

According to this site 15 went and fought for Croatia between 1991-95- 1 killed and 2 wounded:

http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/9991/1/481-foreign-volunteers-from-35-coun...

comparable proportion of Australia's Croat community perhaps?

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:30am:

The vast majority of Australian Muslims are not head hacking rapists ready to jump on the next plane plane to defend the new Caliphate, 7 year old son in tow. Move along people, nothing to see here.

Indeed. Its difficult to believe you would say that as sarcasm. Especially from someone who once wisely said:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 5:56pm:

.What we need to do is stop alienating the entire muslim community and work with them towards the goals we have in common. The more we tar them all with the same brush, the more we push weaker individuals towards extremism.

FD, can you confirm that the above statement is nothing but the worst of spineless apologetics, and that the "correct" approach is instead to tar all muslims with the same brush, demonising them all as terrorists or terrorist lovers?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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|dev|null

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #38 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 1:11pm

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

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This has resulted in higher than normal criminal rates amongst them. We've managed to address (or largely ignore) that problem and it's righted itself. Muslim youngsters seem to need more, not less help and accepting them and their culture may well help.

What kind of help are you suggesting?

Perhaps what you suggested in 2007?
freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 5:56pm:

.What we need to do is stop alienating the entire muslim community and work with them towards the goals we have in common. The more we tar them all with the same brush, the more we push weaker individuals towards extremism.

Interesting, isn't it how Brian is saying what you were saying in 2007 but you're now attacking him for saying it
now?

Rarely have I seen a better example of hypocrisy! Cheesy

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #39 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 1:59pm LOL FD will never live that down - and rightly so too.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #40 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 2:05pm polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 1:59pm: LOL FD will never live that down - and rightly so too. I thought he made a lot of sense. What happened to him?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #41 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 2:22pm It did make a lot of sense. But that was before FD 'talked to muslims and found out what islam was all about'. Since then he wisely dismisses such apologetics with sensible rhetorical questions like: "So we need to make more of an effort to appease terrorists in case they blow up busses and we only have ourselves to blame?"
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #42 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 3:20pm Yes, that makes sense, G. Of course FD uncovered the truth with questions like that. He must have unearthed a myriad of dastardly Muslim crimes, most of them unreported and unaccounted for. Terrorism, paedophilia, underage marriage, lying to FD when questioned. I do hope this has been reported to the relevant authorities.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49094 At my desk.	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #43 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 6:28pm Quote: Interesting, isn't it how Brian is s aying what you were saying in 2007 but you're now attacking him for saying it now? The difference seems pretty obvious to me. There are plenty of users still around who think the way I did in 2007, who are nothing at all like Brian.
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Brian Ross

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #44 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 6:29pm

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:30am:

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Suddenly it goes from all Muslims to "many Muslims".

When was it "all Muslims"?

It was implied when you stated
freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

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We've seen similar problems with other immigrant groups

Which immigrant groups were ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

You suggested that the entire Muslim immigrant group was "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy", FD.

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How many? Do you have firm numbers? Or are these like Adamant's statistics, something you're extracting from some orifice or other?

Like I keep telling you, the Pew survey is a good place to start.

So, you can't quote numbers, merely point to an entire survey? A little better than Adamant but you do realise that Pew have taken many surveys and the statistics measured have fluctuated quite a bit? Which survey in particular and which questions are you referring to, FD?

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Yet, when I ask individuals and groups of Muslims I get very different results, FD. I've served with, worked with, studied with and taught Muslims for over 30 years, and none have expressed the opinions you claim are commonplace amongst Muslims.

I've seen your efforts Brian. You pretty much beg them to lie to you or change the subject. They offer you a few meaningless platitudes, and suddenly the most backward Muslim is your best friend who you stand up for because he is just like you.

Every time you make this claim about a specific view, I ask you, did you ever actually ask them about it? Your response, silence. Just like Gandalf's efforts to divine the opinion of Malaysian Muslims on executing apostates and stoning adulterers to death, without inconvenient details like asking them what their opinion is.

You have no idea what I say or ask, FD. You are not present. Therefore this is pure conjecture on your part. Ever consider that just as I give you and your ilk a hard time, I may give them a hard time? I can invariably argue both sides of most debates I become involved with. Most good debaters can.

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How the hell would you know what I've said or not said to the many Muslims I've known over the years?

I've seen how you work from the safety of an internet forum, and can only imagine it is even worse in person.

Still pure conjecture, FD. If you carry on the same way you do here, when you've been speaking to Muslims in real life, I'm not surprised that you get rebuffed. Roll Eyes

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Forgotten the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, FD? Everything IS is doing or has done in Syria and Iraq, happened or worse, in Yugoslavia when that country broke up. IS has yet to build concentration camps though, as far as I am aware, where they set out to starve "undesirable" people (primarily men and boys) to death. Amazing how myopic your view of history is, isn't it, FD?

So how many Australian wogs felt it their religious duty to go over to join in the rape fest?

Well, considering that the first Australians of Croatian descent went to Jugoslavia in the 1960s to take part in a rebellion against the Serbian authorities, I'd suspect quite a number. That several fled back here and were found hiding out after being wanted for war crimes committed over there, the proportion should have been fairly high. Perhaps higher than amongst Muslims. However, I have no firm numbers.

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No, FD, that is not what I just proposed and your deliberate misconstruing simply shows the depths of your hatred for everybody Muslim. Try again and read it slowly this time with an open mind, OK?

Funnily enough, it still says the same stupid thing. Give Muslims money to stop them being terrorists. Like sit down money. We can call it no-blowing-up-bus money. Maybe they could use it to educate their children, to replace all the federal government funds siphoned off by the AFIC and various other highly respected Muslim community leaders.

Yet, as we've seen, FD you were proposing exactly the same thing in 2007... Roll Eyes

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 5:56pm:

.What we need to do is stop alienating the entire muslim community and work with them towards the goals we have in common. The more we tar them all with the same brush, the more we push weaker individuals towards extremism.

Quote:

Yes. Many. However money is often the oil which greases the wheels of society, FD. Perhaps you should remember that when Government announces that it's funding some CWA initiative or community festival?

Good point. The CWA never blows up buses. I think you're onto a winner here Brian.

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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