Australian Politics Forum - Number 1 wally

Karnal

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #45 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 7:51pm

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 6:28pm:

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Interesting, isn't it how Brian is s

aying what you were saying in 2007 but you're now attacking him for saying it now?

The difference seems pretty obvious to me. There are plenty of users still around who think the way I did in 2007, who are nothing at all like Brian.

True, FD. We’re all individuals.

But the 2007 FD does have a lot in common with Brian.

Do you think they played golf together?

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freediver

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #46 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:08pm

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It was implied when you stated

How do you know I wasn't implying something else, eg many, some most, the vast majority, the black ones etc?

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You suggested that the entire Muslim immigrant group was "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy", FD.

You can read an aweful lot into a question Brian. It did not suddenly go from all Muslims to some. It suddenly went from you being able to fill in the gaps with whatever you wanted to imagine to you not being able to do so. I can only imagine you are equally imaginative with obtaining the opinions of Muslims.

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So, you can't quote numbers, merely point to an entire survey?

The survey has the numbers Brian.

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You have no idea what I say or ask, FD. You are not present.

I know what you say here. I know you have made this claim before, and have been totally unable to answer the question - did you actually ask these Muslims their opinion on whatever issue you insist you know what they think. Obtaining knowledge of others' opinions through osmosis was a recurring theme for you for a while.

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Ever consider that just as I give you and your ilk a hard time, I may give them a hard time?

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I can invariably argue both sides of most debates I become involved with. Most good debaters can.

Most normal people argue the side they agree with.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #47 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:33pm

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

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It was implied when you stated

How do you know I wasn't implying something else, eg many, some most, the vast majority, the black ones etc?

Because you did not qualify your statement, FD. An unqualified statement implies the whole. Roll Eyes

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You suggested that the entire Muslim immigrant group was "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy", FD.

You can read an aweful lot into a question Brian. It did not suddenly go from all Muslims to some. It suddenly went from you being able to fill in the gaps with whatever you wanted to imagine to you not being able to do so. I can only imagine you are equally imaginative with obtaining the opinions of Muslims.

If you leave gaps in your statements, I am forced to fill them, FD. You did not qualify your statement, therefore it must apply to the whole. If I was to say, "Australians believe x, y or z," for example I imply all Australians believe x, y or z. If OTOH, I state, "Most Australians believe..." then I am showing that I appreciate that not all Australians have this belief. You invariably talk about "Muslims". Not "Some Muslims," "a few Muslims," or "Muslims from Afghanistan [for example]..." You speak as if Muslims are monolithic in their views. Roll Eyes

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So, you can't quote numbers, merely point to an entire survey?

The survey has the numbers Brian.

Which survey? As I've said, the Pew organisation conducts many surveys. Lets be specific please, rather than using hand waving. Provide a link to the survey you claim has "the numbers", FD. Roll Eyes

That way we can check to make sure it actually "has the numbers."

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You have no idea what I say or ask, FD. You are not present.

I know what you say here. I know you have made this claim before, and have been totally unable to answer the question - did you actually ask these Muslims their opinion on whatever issue you insist you know what they think. Obtaining knowledge of others' opinions through osmosis was a recurring theme for you for a while.

FD, I try and engage in a Socratic dialogue with my opponents. I find out what they believe before I debate it. That is why I ask questions. Questions which point out their erroneous thinking.

Of course I ask people I'm discussing such matters with, questions. Roll Eyes

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Ever consider that just as I give you and your ilk a hard time, I may give them a hard time?

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I can invariably argue both sides of most debates I become involved with. Most good debaters can.

Most normal people argue the side they agree with.

Unless you fully understand the argument of the con side, you cannot really argue the pro, FD. Roll Eyes

You've never done much formal debating, have you?

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #48 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:33pm That’s right. You can read what you want into FD’s questions. FD’s just seeking the truth. Life is a mystery, eh FD?
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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 41954	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #49 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:34pm Karnal wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:33pm: That’s right. You can read what you want into FD’s questions. FD’s just seeking the truth. Life is a mystery, eh FD? It appears so, for him. If that is what FD is seeking, he has a deuced odd way of finding it.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49093 At my desk.	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #50 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:47pm Quote: If you leave gaps in your statements, I am forced to fill them, FD. No you are not. Quote: You did not qualify your statement, therefore it must apply to the whole. The only thing an unqualified use of the plural must necessarily imply is more than one.
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Brian Ross

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #51 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 10:29pm

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:47pm:

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If you leave gaps in your statements, I am forced to fill them, FD.

No you are not.

No, I am forced to fill them. If you don't want me filling them, FD, then don't leave the gaps!

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You did not qualify your statement, therefore it must apply to the whole.

The only thing an unqualified use of the plural must necessarily imply is more than one.

No, it implies the whole, FD. Roll Eyes

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49093 At my desk.	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #52 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:02pm So if I discover tomorrow morning that my front lawn is chewed down to grass level and declare "rabbits did this", I must necessarily mean every single rabbit in the world took a bite from my lawn overnight?
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Brian Ross

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #53 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:33pm

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:02pm:

So if I discover tomorrow morning that my front lawn is chewed down to grass level and declare "rabbits did this", I must necessarily mean every single rabbit in the world took a bite from my lawn overnight?

No but when you make a claim about "Muslims" you are implying that all Muslims are what you claim.

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Adamant

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #54 - Aug 16^th, 2014 at 1:52am

"Yet, when I ask individuals and groups of Muslims I get very different results, FD. I've served with, worked with, studied with and taught Muslims for over 30 years, and none have expressed the opinions you claim are commonplace amongst Muslims".

In previous posts Brian you have stated that you are using your own name and proud of it.

Why is it that I can find NO link to your claim I have quoted?

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freediver

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #55 - Aug 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:33pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:02pm:

So if I discover tomorrow morning that my front lawn is chewed down to grass level and declare "rabbits did this", I must necessarily mean every single rabbit in the world took a bite from my lawn overnight?

No but when you make a claim about "Muslims" you are implying that all Muslims are what you claim.

Why is it different Brian? If I found black flags on my lawn instead and proclaimed "Muslims did this", would I be mistakenly insisting that every Muslim in the world turned up my lawn overnight and left their jihad flag behind?

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Soren

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #56 - Aug 16^th, 2014 at 10:42am

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:28pm:

No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy". Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community? What planet do you live on, FD, really? 'cause it sure isn't the Earth. I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section. You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe. Roll Eyes

Islam is ideologically opposed to freedom, democracy, equality, self-correction and all the rest of that makes the West.

Individuals who are born into Islam but who do not embrace it fully or at all (apostates) may not be against these things. But Islam is and its adhrents, by definition, are. Whether they are 'peaceful or not is a different issue. Most Germans in the Nazi era, Russians under Stalin, Chinese under Mao etc were not vicious murderers themselves even as millions were killed in these regimes. The West didn't say, "lets allow non-dicriminatory migration from these places because it is only the 'tiny minority' of Germans, Russian and Chinese are bad, those who distort the essentially peaceful ideas of National Socialism, Communism or Mao thought".

Only those who were demonstrably AGAINST these ideologies were given refuge. Not the ones who were too cowardly and opportunistic, despite their 'vast majority" to confront the evils of the "distorting tiny minority". The same should apply to Islam.

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Datalife

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #57 - Aug 16^th, 2014 at 10:59am

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:33pm:

Unless you fully understand the argument of the con side, you cannot really argue the pro, FD. Roll Eyes

Brian you have confused yourself. As much as you would like to imagine you do, you don't engage in Socratic discourse, your arguing both sides just means speaking out of both sides of your mouth and lying to win whatever side of the argument you find yourself on.

Have you figured out if you are going to play at being an academic on the internets or not?

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Brian Ross wrote:DL, I haven't claimed to be an academic. I've never been employed as one nor claimed to hold any academic standing. That is a product it appears of your febrile imagination. I'll leave you to keep up your strawmen arguments yourself.

From the nice person who hasn't even the brains to remember his previous announcements of being an academic.

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Brian Ross wrote:I have been a published academic at several points in my life, Sappho. ?

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Brian Ross wrote:Actually, DL, I referred to several webpages before I typed that out, to make sure what I remembered from my academic days was correct.

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Brian Ross wrote:You must move in very different academic circles to myself

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Brian Ross wrote:Funny, is that why whenever I or anybody else bring up their academic qualifications or knowledge you attack them personally? ?

In short Brian, you are not Socratic, you are just a petty liar and bullshit artist who will say whatever it takes, truthful or not.

Absolutely no credibilty, you are an embarrassment to yourself.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49093 At my desk.	Re: Number 1 wally Reply #58 - Aug 16^th, 2014 at 11:27am Brian argues both sides without understanding either. I can't imagine the Muslims are overjoyed at the thought of having Brian stand up for them.
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Karnal

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Re: Number 1 wally
Reply #59 - Aug 16^th, 2014 at 12:37pm

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 10:42am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:28pm:

No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy". Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community? What planet do you live on, FD, really? 'cause it sure isn't the Earth. I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section. You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe. Roll Eyes

Islam is ideologically opposed to freedom, democracy, equality, self-correction and all the rest of that makes the West.

Individuals who are born into Islam but who do not embrace it fully or at all (apostates) may not be against these things. But Islam is and its adhrents, by definition, are. Whether they are 'peaceful or not is a different issue. Most Germans in the Nazi era, Russians under Stalin, Chinese under Mao etc were not vicious murderers themselves even as millions were killed in these regimes. The West didn't say, "lets allow non-dicriminatory migration from these places because it is only the 'tiny minority' of Germans, Russian and Chinese are bad, those who distort the essentially peaceful ideas of National Socialism, Communism or Mao thought".

Only those who were demonstrably AGAINST these ideologies were given refuge. Not the ones who were too cowardly and opportunistic, despite their 'vast majority" to confront the evils of the "distorting tiny minority". The same should apply to Islam.

Sorry, old chap, I don’t quite follow. Are you saying Muslims are terrible, but Nazis and Communists are, on the whole, really nice people once you get to know them?

Please explain.

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