Australian Politics Forum - Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith

Brian Ross

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #105 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:34pm

SweetLambo wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:03pm:

Team Murdoch wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:55pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:04pm:

The sheer stupidity of the non-muslim crowd certainly contributes to the problem. Eg:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 4:18pm:

The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy (which is straight from the Koran) and stoning people to death for adultery.

What is actually "straight from the Quran" on this issue is:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
18:29

upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account.
13:40

There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance.
2:256

Gandalf does killing apostates count as compulsion?

Arrogant people never admit that they are wrong.

Perhaps Freediver has confused the Quran with the Bible:

Quote:

...whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

2 Chronicles 15:13

Quote:

“If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’...you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God//

Deuteronomy 13:6-11

No he didn't, the scriptures you quote are from the old cannon of scripture and are quoted out of context against the new cannon. A little study wouldn't go astray.

An interesting claim, Matty. One you've made frequently before. Pray tell, if the new canon replaces the old, why is the old still in The Bible? Why do many Christians still refer to the old when preaching? I'd suggest that most theologians would point out, the old is there because it forms the basis upon which Christianity is built. Without it, you have only half the story. Abandoning it in the manner you keep claiming Christians have, is disingenuous but according to some, that sort of tactic is only practised by Muslims, never Christians... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 42167	Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith Reply #106 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:36pm Karnal wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:26pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:14pm: Its almost like keeping islam as the monster serves some twisted agenda of yours. Ah. So. Perhaps if Soren didn't have Islam, he'd have to invent it?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #107 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 7:00pm

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:29pm:

Here is the full version of what Gandalf so selectively quoted:

Selectively - as in completely ignoring 4:91?

Are you one of those who has difficulty understanding the word "if"? Looks like you also have difficulty with the word "or" - as in:

Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty
or
those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people

ie - fight the disbelievers except for the ones who take refuge with a third party whom you have a treaty with - *OR* the ones who declare their willingness for peace.

Again, why is you lot need to do these mental gymnastics to twist this one passage into "kill all apostates", while you completely ignore the plethora of crystal clear commands to leave the disbelievers (again not distinguishing between those who believed and now disbelieve and those who never believed) in peace - so long as they are peaceful in return?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #108 - Sep 1^st, 2014 at 8:42am

4.91 is self explanatory:

qur'an 4.91: You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

1st sentence: You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people.

you will find others who want peace with their own people and the muslims, they want nothing more than to live in peace with all people

2nd sentence: Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it.

These peaceful people who want security, cannot not see the logic of islam, they want to return to being a non muslim, they become apostates.

3rd sentence: So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them.

If they do not withdraw from you ( are exiled) or offer you peace, restrain their hands, ( they've already done that by coming to muslims seeking security and refuge), then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. (hunt them down and kill them)

4th sentence: And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

muslims have clear authorization to kill apostates

There is no free will in islam.

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Yadda

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #109 - Sep 1^st, 2014 at 9:09am

moses wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 8:42am:

4.91 is self explanatory:

qur'an 4.91: You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

1st sentence: You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people.

you will find others who want peace with their own people and the muslims, they want nothing more than to live in peace with all people

2nd sentence: Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it.

These peaceful people who want security, cannot not see the logic of islam, they want to return to being a non muslim, they become apostates.

3rd sentence: So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them.

If they do not withdraw from you ( are exiled) or offer you peace, restrain their hands, ( they've already done that by coming to muslims seeking security and refuge), then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. (hunt them down and kill them)

4th sentence: And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

muslims have clear authorization to kill apostates

There is no free will in islam.

Yep.

That's the story!

ISLAM;

Moslem = = virtuous human being.

ISLAM;

Non-moslem = = vile human being, worthy of death.i
Yadda wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

Q.
What behaviour is halal [permissible] to a moslem [i.e. to every moslem] ?

Answer.....

ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS!;

For a devout moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia.

.....and it is completely lawful [sanctioned by ISLAM] for the moslem to kill, those who are the enemies of Allah.
.....ALL DISBELIEVERS.

As per the directives of Allah, within ISLAM's own foundation texts;

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."

Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

It is completely lawful whenever the moslem 'righteously' kills, those who are the enemies of Allah

Harbi

= = "one under a declaration of war"
, i.e. a non-moslem.

".........A harbi has no rights, not even the right to live."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbi

Google,
"A harbi has no rights, not even the right to live"

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96197 Gender:	Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith Reply #110 - Sep 1^st, 2014 at 10:44am There you go, G. I trust that puts the matter to rest.
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