Australian Politics Forum - Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith

Brian Ross

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #45 - Aug 18^th, 2014 at 1:05am

Soren wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 8:01pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 1:26am:

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 10:04pm:

[quote]
What's wrong with being utterly unsympathetic to all its premises and teachings and all the actions committed and performed in its name? Why do I have to like the bloody thing??

You don't but you have to tolerate it and it's adherents when they are not breaking any laws, Soren. Intense dislike, to the point of hatred which is unreasoning is bigotry.

I am tolerating them, numpty. I am not doing any of the intolerant things that the sons of Allah do every day - threaten death, violence and actually carry out violence and murder.

No, you just persecute them because of their religious beliefs, Soren, every day and in every post that you post in this forum. Roll Eyes

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I am simply SAYING that Islam has nothing to recommend it.

No, you carry it beyond "simply" saying to persecution. You attack and rail against anything and anybody who is Muslim. One only has to read your responses to Gandalf's reasoned pointed to see that. Roll Eyes

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I don't like a few other ideologies. I do not have to like what you think, Brain.

Not asking you to. I am suggesting that you need to give Muslims are fair go though, Soren. Something you demonstrably have not done here, ever, as far as I can tell.

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You can think what you want but I do not have to say 'Oh, that's noice , Brain'. I do not have to think that just because a billion people believe in something it must be therefore OK.

You don't have to think their religion is "noice", Soren. What you do though, have to do is be part of a civil society where people listen to one another's views and not persecute them because of guilt by association with the lunatic fringe of their religion.

Did Fred Phelps represent your version of Christianity? Joseph Koney? Tomas de Torquemada? 'cause they are examples of how you come across, Soren with your continued and determined bigotry against anything and everybody to do with Islam who disagrees with you. Roll Eyes

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Insofar as a Muslim can treat his religion as a PRIVATE devotion and not a political program, he is welcome to it and will have no bad word from me.

Funny, that is not the impression I get from your posts where you have attacked anybody who dares to admit to being a Muslim. Nor in the way which you treat anybody you even suspect of being a Muslim. How many times have you accused me and others who preach tolerance of being Muslim, as if that is the greatest insult you can conjure? Roll Eyes

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Some old timers are doing just that. It is very thin spiritual gruel but they are welcome to it in peace.

How can they when you are continually posting your vitriol and hatred for them and any other Muslim in the world? Telling them that ALL Muslims, them included are dishonest, followers of a "cult", that their spiritual leader was a paedophile and other insulting things? You really are naive if you think this sort of attitude that you continually express here does not take a toll! Roll Eyes

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But ascendant Islam is militant, political and activists. I am totally against it.

I am against you and your ilk, Soren. Always will be. Hatred, intolerance, bigotry - doesn't matter who spouts it, it is still not acceptable in our modern society. Be it a salafist Islamist or you. Both are the same and for the same reasons to - narrow mindedness, ignorance and hatred. Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #46 - Aug 18^th, 2014 at 1:07am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 8:18pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 6:11pm:

The Ahadith have for a long time G, been considered suspect with many known to have been written well after Muhammad's death to satisfy the political needs of some ruler or other. There is a massive and ongoing project in Turkey at the moment to examine the Hadith closely and determine their veracity.

You're taking a modernist approach, which we are informed by so many of the Islamophobes is impossible in Islam. I'd be worried about death threats from the Islamophobes for daring to throw their claims about Islam and Muslims into doubt! Grin

Watched "Salman Rushdie and The Satanic Verses Affair".

This was a precursor to the Islamist militarism we see today nearly 20 years after Khomeini's fatwa was lifted by the Iranian government.

I imagine that Ayatollah Khomeini was a latter day incarnation of a dark age or medieval pope... Very good reasons why religious primates must never be allowed to wield power.

Having tamed the Vatican, the world must now be vigilant against a Caliphate... Although, admittedly, creating a Caliphate would be as inane as reconstituting the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

No disagreement from me. The Ayatollah was as bad as any renaissance religious leader in Europe. Nearly all preached intolerance and hatred. Just as Soren, Yadda, Moses, et al do here.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #47 - Aug 18^th, 2014 at 1:11am

Soren wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 8:26pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 1:26am:

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 10:04pm:

I do not see anything in Islam that is an improvement of the human condition. It is all negative.

All? Obviously you've never travelled in any Muslim countries, Soren. You are, as I've always maintained one of the best graduates that a Madrassa has ever produced with your intolerance, your hatred and your bigotry. You are the mirror image of the Islamic fundamentalists you rail against and your views would not be out of place in their ranks. Roll Eyes

Yes, all.

Show us one improvement that Islam has brought into the world.

It has united nations, created the conditions for the flowering of high culture, art and science, Soren. It is going through a reformation at the moment as it struggles to adapt to the modern world. Either modernism will take hold and Islam will once again flourish and cultivate higher learning and understanding of the world or it will flounder and sink. It is however, primarily up to the Muslims to decide the direction of their religion. All you'll do is drive the moderates into the arms of the extremists as they feel the pressure of your continued and continual persecution, Soren.

You should be proud that you're as intolerant as those you claim to oppose. Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #48 - Aug 18^th, 2014 at 1:12am

Soren wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 7:03pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 6:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 12:53am:

Adamant wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:46pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:27pm:

Adamant wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 10:55pm:

Please define "Islamophobes"

It is the multiple of "Islamophobe", Adamant. Wink

Please define "Islamophobe".

Islamophobe - one who suffers from Islamophobia.

And before you ask Roll Eyes

Islamophobia

So one mustn't dislike or be prejudiced against an ideology?

No, that isn't what it says, Soren. Try again. Roll Eyes

But that is exactly what YOU are saying, spineless squishy apologist for everything unfree and oppressive.

Thank you, Soren for demonstrating exactly what I'm talking about. Intolerance and hatred all the way for anybody or anything that dares to suggest that you've taken the wrong turning. You're false to everything you claim you're defending, be it civilisation, your religion or your culture.
Roll Eyes

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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith Reply #49 - Aug 18^th, 2014 at 7:19am Well done, Brian and Soren. Once again, you've managed to turn what could have been an interesting discussion into a tit for tat bitch fest. Don't you ever grow tired of it happening in every single topic where you engage?
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Brian Ross

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #50 - Aug 18^th, 2014 at 8:34am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 18^th, 2014 at 7:19am:

Well done, Brian and Soren. Once again, you've managed to turn what could have been an interesting discussion into a tit for tat bitch fest. Don't you ever grow tired of it happening in every single topic where you engage?

Perhaps you should ask Soren that, Annie. I merely reply to his idiocies. He is the one who is showing his intolerance. Perhaps you'd prefer he was given free reign to preach his hatred? Roll Eyes

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #51 - Aug 18^th, 2014 at 10:41am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 18^th, 2014 at 7:19am:

Well done, Brian and Soren. Once again, you've managed to turn what could have been an interesting discussion into a tit for tat bitch fest. Don't you ever grow tired of it happening in every single topic where you engage?

So, you taking over moderator from Gandalf? Grin

Brian's doing a good job of kicking there. Cool

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #52 - Aug 18^th, 2014 at 12:46pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 7:37am:

Gandalf, it's a tricky one. If Muslims follow Muhammad's 'love me, love my Sunnah' doctrine, they have to rely on ahadith for guidance.

In Islam, the Quran was the miracle of Muhammad - Jesus had his healing etc. From what I remember, it is believed to be a perfect book that can't be corrupted. Is that right? Surely all that extra information - particularly punishments like stoning - would have been included in it. There's no mention of more to come in the form of recollections of the Sahabah.

The main problem as I see it is that Islam is a religion of fear for the majority of Muslims. There is a hadith (lol) that says that Muslims who are motivated to worship by love of God rather than fear of hell are closer to heaven - or something like that. Most Muslims I know are motivated by fear. I don't think there'll be any serious questioning of ahadith on a mainstream level while people have that fear.

Yes muslims do consider the Quran a perfect book, when a Florida pastor wanted to burn a Quran the Indonesian president said it could threaten world peace.

Bukhari said the verse on stoning was revealed and read, where did it go what happened to it?
Quote:

Narrated Aisha-
The verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult 10 times was revealed,and the paper was with me under my pillow.
When the messenger of allah died, we were preoccupied with his death,and a tame sheep came in and ate it.
sunnah.com/urn/1262630

Do you want to explain what breastfeeding an adult 10 times is for,why does an adult need to be breastfed?

Of course we have a hadith that explains what happened to the stoning verse yet muslims absurdly insist the Quran has never been corrupted.

I give Allah an incomplete for the Quran, muslims could not add verses to the quran afterwards because they accuse jews/christians of following corrupted beliefs and that would make them hypocrites for doing the exact same thing so they came up with the sunnah to explain the things the quran left out which allowed them to sidestep the issue of corrupting the quran.

The Saudi constitution says gods book (quran) and the sunnah of his prophet are the constitution of Saudi Arabia, the sunnah carries as much authority as the Quran.

Of course the Sunni say the shia hadeeth is unreliable and the shia do not respect Bukhari or the sunni hadeeth, the doctrinal differences between these sects comes from books that were written a couple of hundred years after the Quran.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #53 - Aug 18^th, 2014 at 10:22pm

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:41pm:

Quote:

witness testimony in legal matters

Does that include the relative value of testimony from women and non-Muslims?

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eg laws around marriage

Is there anything about sex with female slaves in the Koran, or anything that forbids it?

I know what you are trying to do, but I think I'll let that through to the keeper.

We are talking about the ahadith, and I'd like to keep it to that please.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #54 - Aug 18^th, 2014 at 10:48pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 7:37am:

Gandalf, it's a tricky one. If Muslims follow Muhammad's 'love me, love my Sunnah' doctrine, they have to rely on ahadith for guidance.

Did he say that though? I tend to think that is a myth.

I found this interesting article which I find myself in strong agreement with:

http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/misinterpreted_verses/_obey_god_%28P1245%...

Quote:

In Islam, the Quran was the miracle of Muhammad - Jesus had his healing etc. From what I remember, it is believed to be a perfect book that can't be corrupted. Is that right? Surely all that extra information - particularly punishments like stoning - would have been included in it. There's no mention of more to come in the form of recollections of the Sahabah.

Absolutely. The Quranic punishment for adultery is flogging and/or house arrest. Saying that the punishment must be stoning is nothing short of rejecting the authority of the Quran. And the idea of 'abrogation' is a complete fabrication - some muslims even making the incredible argument that some ahadith abrogate the Quran!

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #55 - Aug 19^th, 2014 at 12:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 18^th, 2014 at 10:22pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:41pm:

Quote:

witness testimony in legal matters

Does that include the relative value of testimony from women and non-Muslims?

Quote:

eg laws around marriage

Is there anything about sex with female slaves in the Koran, or anything that forbids it?

I know what you are trying to do, but I think I'll let that through to the keeper.

We are talking about the ahadith, and I'd like to keep it to that please.

You brought up the Koran Gandalf. It's pretty hard not to, given the subject. Do we need a different thread on the difference between the Koran and hadith?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #56 - Aug 19^th, 2014 at 12:55pm

For once I'd like to talk about islamic jurisprudence without the usual sh!tfest about sex slaves.

Now I just know you are going to start a new thread and quote the above as some kind of evidence for how unreasonable muslims are, thats fine.

But if I can have just one thread without that tired nonsense, then I'll be satisfied.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith Reply #57 - Aug 19^th, 2014 at 3:50pm Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18533 Gender:	Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith Reply #58 - Aug 19^th, 2014 at 3:53pm The post was on topic Gandalf, it showed how the ahadith is used to get the context of the Quran verses. I posted a sahih hadith and the Quran verse it mentioned, how is that off topic?
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith Reply #59 - Aug 19^th, 2014 at 5:06pm Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 19^th, 2014 at 3:53pm: The post was on topic Gandalf, it showed how the ahadith is used to get the context of the Quran verses. I posted a sahih hadith and the Quran verse it mentioned, how is that off topic? Yes, Master.
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