Australian Politics Forum - Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith

moses

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #90 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 3:36pm

I wrote in Reply #85 - Yesterday at 3:56pm:

Quote:

qur'an: 4.88 - What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.

Freewill in islam?

Definitely not. allah causes people to err, he makes their minds up for them. Either that or qur'an 4.88 is lying

However more importantly, why does allah cause innocent people to err? well the next verse tells us:

qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of allah; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

What a surprise, allah caused them to err, disbelieve (become apostates), he then commands, unless they join islam (emigrate in the way of allah), muslims are to kill them.

So once again islam / allah / muhammad / qur'an is nothing more that a conglomeration which urges terrorism, torture and mass murder, as the way for muslims to follow.

gandalf wrote in Reply #88 - Yesterday at 5:22pm:

Quote:

Ask moses to quote you the very next verse - as I know you are incapable of finding it yourself.

My pleasure gandalf, the next two verses to give the true picture of islam:

Quote:

qur'an 4.90: Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

The above verse refers to people who are seeking refuge, who don't want to fight muslims or their own people, all so benign and compassionate isn't it?

However the next verse shows the true muslim spirit

Quote:

qur'an 4.91: You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

Now the real message of compulsion and murder comes out: 4.91 states that some people will come to muslims seeking security from muslims and their own people, (obviously these people are peaceful, they do not want any trouble, they are seeking refuge and security)

However verse 4.91 states that they will fall under the influence of disbelief. Remember 4.89 says they are not to be accepted until they emigrate in the way of allah; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them.

4.91 is exactly the same, people who become apostates, must be removed, subjected to rules and regulations outside of the norm, or hunted down and killed.

So qur'an 4.88 4.89 4.90 & 4.91 absolutely prove there is no free will in islam.

There definitely is compulsion, terrorism, torture and mass murder directed against those who don't believe in islam / allah / muhammad / qur'an.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #91 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 3:42pm

But, M, I’m confused. Haven’t you be saying we should exile, and when that’s not possible, invade and slay people who refuse to make peace with us?

In fact, haven’t you often said we should invade and slay people in foreign lands who don’t even pose a threat to us?

In the words of the old boy’s bard, please explain.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #92 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:04pm

The sheer stupidity of the non-muslim crowd certainly contributes to the problem. Eg:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 4:18pm:

The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy (which is straight from the Koran) and stoning people to death for adultery.

What is actually "straight from the Quran" on this issue is:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
18:29

upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account.
13:40

There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance.
2:256

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #93 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:04pm:

The sheer stupidity of the non-muslim crowd certainly contributes to the problem. Eg:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 4:18pm:

The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy (which is straight from the Koran) and stoning people to death for adultery.

What is actually "straight from the Quran" on this issue is:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
18:29

upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account.
13:40

There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance.
2:256

Your quotes refer to those who have not yet converted to Islam, not to those who, having converted, now want to leave Islam. For them, the rulings are these:

There is also a consensus by all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (i.e., Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafii), as well as classical Shiite jurists, that apostates from Islam must be put to death. The process of declaring a person to be an apostate is known as takfir and the disbeliever is called a murtad.

Averroes (d. 1198), the renowned philosopher and scholar of the natural sciences, who was also an important Maliki jurist, provided this typical Muslim legal opinion on the punishment for apostasy: "An apostate...is to be executed by agreement in the case of a man, because of the words of the Prophet, 'Slay those who change their din [religion]'...Asking the apostate to repent was stipulated as a condition...prior to his execution."

The contemporary (i.e., 1991) Al-Azhar (Cairo) Islamic Research Academy endorsed manual of Islamic Law, Umdat al-Salik (pp. 595-96) states: "Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst.... When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostasizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed. In such a case, it is obligatory...to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed."

The equivalent, gravely negative implications of the OIC's Sharia-based Cairo Declaration are most apparent in its transparent rejection of freedom of conscience in Article 10, which proclaims: "Islam is the religion of unspoiled nature. It is prohibited to exercise any form of compulsion on man or to exploit his poverty or ignorance in order to convert him to another religion, or to atheism."
Ominously, articles 19 and 22 reiterate a principle stated elsewhere throughout the document, which clearly applies to the "punishment" of so-called "apostates" from Islam:
"[19d] There shall be no crime or punishment except as provided for in the Sharia.; [22a] Everyone shall have the right to express his opinion freely in such manner as would not be contrary to the principles of the Sharia.; [22b] Everyone shall have the right to advocate what is right, and propagate what is good, and warn against what is wrong and evil according to the norms of Islamic Sharia.; [22c] Information is a vital necessity to society. It may not be exploited or misused in such a way as may violate sanctities and the dignity of Prophets, undermine moral and ethical values or disintegrate, corrupt or harm society or weaken its faith."

Which bit is a lie, Gandalf?

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freediver

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #94 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:17pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:04pm:

The sheer stupidity of the non-muslim crowd certainly contributes to the problem. Eg:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 4:18pm:

The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy (which is straight from the Koran) and stoning people to death for adultery.

What is actually "straight from the Quran" on this issue is:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
18:29

upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account.
13:40

There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance.
2:256

Gandalf does killing apostates count as compulsion?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #95 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:46pm

re. reply #90:

I have disproven this argument before, I suspect it was moses then as well. It is an extremely simple rebuttal, because the evidence is crystal clear:

There are two things here:

1. The verse 4:90:

if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

Clearly a precondition for executing those who are openly hostile to the muslim community is that they must remain hostile, reject peace and do not remove themselves from the community.

2. As if that wasn't clear enough, 4:91 reemphasises the point:

if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them.

The key to understanding these verses is to understand the word "if" - IF they do not withdraw, IF they do not restrain themselves and IF they do not offer you peace...

or in other words - fight those who attack you. Very simple and straight forward - for anyone who reads it with an open mind.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith Reply #96 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:53pm freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:17pm: Gandalf does killing apostates count as compulsion? Brilliant question FD. Possibly the question of the decade. I'll no doubt ponder over it continually for the next 15 years or so.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Team Murdoch

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #97 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:55pm

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:04pm:

The sheer stupidity of the non-muslim crowd certainly contributes to the problem. Eg:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 4:18pm:

The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy (which is straight from the Koran) and stoning people to death for adultery.

What is actually "straight from the Quran" on this issue is:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
18:29

upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account.
13:40

There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance.
2:256

Gandalf does killing apostates count as compulsion?

Arrogant people never admit that they are wrong.

Perhaps Freediver has confused the Quran with the Bible:

Quote:

...whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

2 Chronicles 15:13

Quote:

“If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’...you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God//

Deuteronomy 13:6-11

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Karnal

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #98 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:53pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:17pm:

Gandalf does killing apostates count as compulsion?

Brilliant question FD. Possibly the question of the decade.

I'll no doubt ponder over it continually for the next 15 years or so.

Don’t go too far, G. Sometimes a question is just a question, you know.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #99 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:02pm

Team Murdoch wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:55pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:04pm:

The sheer stupidity of the non-muslim crowd certainly contributes to the problem. Eg:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 4:18pm:

The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy (which is straight from the Koran) and stoning people to death for adultery.

What is actually "straight from the Quran" on this issue is:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
18:29

upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account.
13:40

There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance.
2:256

Gandalf does killing apostates count as compulsion?

Arrogant people never admit that they are wrong.

Perhaps Freediver has confused the Quran with the Bible:

Quote:

...whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

2 Chronicles 15:13

Quote:

“If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’...you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God//

Deuteronomy 13:6-11

We ignore those bits, TM - unless we need to justify a jolly old killing.

No Christians take those words seriously anymore, shurely.

Okay, apart from Yadda, I mean.

The old boy’s a Freudian. He doesn’t count.

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SweetLambo

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #100 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:03pm

Team Murdoch wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:55pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:04pm:

The sheer stupidity of the non-muslim crowd certainly contributes to the problem. Eg:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 4:18pm:

The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy (which is straight from the Koran) and stoning people to death for adultery.

What is actually "straight from the Quran" on this issue is:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
18:29

upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account.
13:40

There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance.
2:256

Gandalf does killing apostates count as compulsion?

Arrogant people never admit that they are wrong.

Perhaps Freediver has confused the Quran with the Bible:

Quote:

...whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

2 Chronicles 15:13

Quote:

“If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’...you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God//

Deuteronomy 13:6-11

No he didn't, the scriptures you quote are from the old cannon of scripture and are quoted out of context against the new cannon. A little study wouldn't go astray.

No comment for the Islamic blow fly, it never knows what it is talking about.

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The quran was not written by allah unless allah has no knowledge of science and historical facts. No quran or prophet mohammed existed until 60 years after mohammed's death.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96220 Gender:	Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith Reply #101 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:05pm You haven’t been reading Yadda’s posts, Yasser. Naughty naughty.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #102 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:14pm

Soren wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:15pm:

Your quotes refer to those who have not yet converted to Islam, not to those who, having converted, now want to leave Islam.

Baseless. Verse 2:256 is a direct translation, word for word of the English words "no" "compulsion" "in" "religion" - "La" Ikraha" "fee" "Al-deen".

The Quran has many mentions of how to treat disbelievers (patience and non-emnity - until they initiate hostilities), nowhere does it distinguish between those disbelievers who were once believers and those who were not.

Soren wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:15pm:

Which bit is a lie, Gandalf?

None of it is a lie - I'm sure those jurists genuinely believe the crap they spout.

But what is the real issue here Soren? You are proving more and more that you are deeply threatened by muslims wanting to reform islam for the better. Why else would you sneer and jeer at it so? I really cannot fathom it. Its almost like keeping islam as the monster serves some twisted agenda of yours.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96220 Gender:	Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith Reply #103 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:26pm polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:14pm: Its almost like keeping islam as the monster serves some twisted agenda of yours. Ah.
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freediver

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Re: Muslims must reassess the role of ahadith
Reply #104 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 5:46pm:

re. reply #90:

I have disproven this argument before, I suspect it was moses then as well. It is an extremely simple rebuttal, because the evidence is crystal clear:

There are two things here:

1. The verse 4:90:

if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

Clearly a precondition for executing those who are openly hostile to the muslim community is that they must remain hostile, reject peace and do not remove themselves from the community.

2. As if that wasn't clear enough, 4:91 reemphasises the point:

if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them.

The key to understanding these verses is to understand the word "if" - IF they do not withdraw, IF they do not restrain themselves and IF they do not offer you peace...

or in other words - fight those who attack you. Very simple and straight forward - for anyone who reads it with an open mind.

So if your neighbour apostasises you can only kill him if he doesn't leave the country?

Here is the full version of what Gandalf so selectively quoted:

http://quran.com/4/90

Quote:

Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

Looks to me like this applies in the context of war - ie do not pursue apostates if they take refuge with people with whom you have a treaty, or who could defeat you at war. It is not a qualification on the command to kill apostates.

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« Last Edit: Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:36pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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