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ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who.. (Read 22899 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #135 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:29pm  
freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 6:43pm:
Crap. 88 and 89 say kill apostates. 90 and 91 say do not pursue them if they escape to a country with which you have a treaty or that could defeat you at war.


It would help if you had some idea about which verses we are talking about FD (ie not 4:88)

4:89 gives permission to fight the disbelievers who initiate hostilities against the muslims.

4:90 specifices *TWO* exceptions: 1. those who take refuge with a third party with whom you have a treaty with, and 2. those " who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people." - note the words "come to you" - putting to bed your little lie just now that only those who flee are to be spared.

4:91 reemphasises the limitations on 4:89:

if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them.

- note again - withdrawal is not a prerequisite - they merely need to offer peace, or even just restrain themselves - and they are free to live amongst the muslims. Reasonable no?

Proof that disbelievers can be part of islamic society:

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
60:8
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #136 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:33pm  
Doesn’t the Quran also make the recommendation to treat strangers as friends, and welcome them as guests?
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #137 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:44pm  
Karnal wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:33pm:
Doesn’t the Quran also make the recommendation to treat strangers as friends, and welcome them as guests?


There are a few references to "the traveler", and to include him in a range of charitable deeds.

I believe there is also a couple of ahadith about being generous to the "wayfarer" as a good deed.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #138 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:46pm  
Karnal wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:26pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 6:43pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 5:26pm:
Soren wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 5:00pm:
Which one of these is a lie?


The bit about it being a license to execute apostates.

Verses 4:88-91 are related to dealing with internal dissidents who are waging open war against the muslim community. The phrase "turn away" translates more correctly to "create emnity", or in the standard Yusuf Ali version, "turn renegade".

Understanding the true meaning is not difficult if you bother to read the following verse:

"...if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."

Perfectly consistent with other Quranic verses instructing muslims to fight only when attacked, and to always make peace when offered it.

What the Quran actually says in relation to apostasy:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
18:29

upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account.
13:40

There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance.
2:256

Very clear, no ambiguation at all - yet you won't see Soren ever quoting it.


Crap. 88 and 89 say kill apostates. 90 and 91 say do not pursue them if they escape to a country with which you have a treaty or that could defeat you at war.

Quote:
Something tells me we’re going to have some fun picking through the results over the next few days though.


Karnal, have you forgotten the last time we didcated 100 or so pages to doing just that? About a dozen of them were dedicated to getting Gandalf to grasp the maths.

Quote:
Of those who responded in the affirmative for wanting SHariah law, this is the  percentage of people who think it should apply to Muslims or the entire pop.


Annie, how much sense does it make for the law to execute apostates to apply only to non-Muslims?

Quote:
The survey also differentiated between different forms of Sharia law - such as civil and criminal law. Most Muslims surveyed don’t want a bar of the Saudi-style amputations, etc, instead preferring Sharia courts to be for family and property settlement cases.


Karnal, the survey specifically asked about executing apostates. The majority of Malaysian Muslims support it.


What did I tell you, Annie? FD won’t even mention "Pew" by name.

No Pew jokes here, FD. Something tells me we’re going to read a lot more of this research.

You can blame the old boy for that.


Karnal I have bumped every thread I can find with discussion of the Pew survey in the opening post. Let me know if I missed any. There are also many (including the original) in which it was introduced part way through the thread, like the spineless apologetics thread. Most of the ones I bumped have links in the opening post to the earlier discussion. Read all you want. You no longer need to constantly accuse me of trying to hide this from you.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Karnal
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #139 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 8:54pm  
freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:46pm:
Karnal wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:26pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 6:43pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 5:26pm:
Soren wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 5:00pm:
Which one of these is a lie?


The bit about it being a license to execute apostates.

Verses 4:88-91 are related to dealing with internal dissidents who are waging open war against the muslim community. The phrase "turn away" translates more correctly to "create emnity", or in the standard Yusuf Ali version, "turn renegade".

Understanding the true meaning is not difficult if you bother to read the following verse:

"...if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."

Perfectly consistent with other Quranic verses instructing muslims to fight only when attacked, and to always make peace when offered it.

What the Quran actually says in relation to apostasy:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
18:29

upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account.
13:40

There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance.
2:256

Very clear, no ambiguation at all - yet you won't see Soren ever quoting it.


Crap. 88 and 89 say kill apostates. 90 and 91 say do not pursue them if they escape to a country with which you have a treaty or that could defeat you at war.

Quote:
Something tells me we’re going to have some fun picking through the results over the next few days though.


Karnal, have you forgotten the last time we didcated 100 or so pages to doing just that? About a dozen of them were dedicated to getting Gandalf to grasp the maths.

Quote:
Of those who responded in the affirmative for wanting SHariah law, this is the  percentage of people who think it should apply to Muslims or the entire pop.


Annie, how much sense does it make for the law to execute apostates to apply only to non-Muslims?

Quote:
The survey also differentiated between different forms of Sharia law - such as civil and criminal law. Most Muslims surveyed don’t want a bar of the Saudi-style amputations, etc, instead preferring Sharia courts to be for family and property settlement cases.


Karnal, the survey specifically asked about executing apostates. The majority of Malaysian Muslims support it.


What did I tell you, Annie? FD won’t even mention "Pew" by name.

No Pew jokes here, FD. Something tells me we’re going to read a lot more of this research.

You can blame the old boy for that.


Karnal I have bumped every thread I can find with discussion of the Pew survey in the opening post. Let me know if I missed any. There are also many (including the original) in which it was introduced part way through the thread, like the spineless apologetics thread. Most of the ones I bumped have links in the opening post to the earlier discussion. Read all you want. You no longer need to constantly accuse me of trying to hide this from you.


Now now, FD, don’t you worry about a thing. I think the best course of action is to spend a few days reviewing your reasearch, and coming back and having a little chat when we’re done.

You wouldn’t object to that, would you?
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Soren
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #140 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 9:14pm  
Karnal wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:33pm:
Doesn’t the Quran also make the recommendation to treat strangers as friends, and welcome them as guests?

As long as they are the right kind of musualman. Otherwise beheading is also an option.
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Karnal
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #141 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:10am  
Soren wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 9:14pm:
Karnal wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:33pm:
Doesn’t the Quran also make the recommendation to treat strangers as friends, and welcome them as guests?

As long as they are the right kind of musualman. Otherwise beheading is also an option.




You’ve been reading Freud on Man’s Soul again, haven’t you.

Who’s a clever boy then?

Sometimes an old boy is just an old boy.



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Bobby.
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #142 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:21am  
Karnal wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:10am:
Soren wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 9:14pm:
Karnal wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:33pm:
Doesn’t the Quran also make the recommendation to treat strangers as friends, and welcome them as guests?

As long as they are the right kind of musualman. Otherwise beheading is also an option.




You’ve been reading Freud on Man’s Soul again, haven’t you.

Who’s a clever boy then?

Sometimes an old boy is just an old boy.




These Muslims will do whatever their old book tells them - they worry me.
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cods
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #143 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 9:16am  
Bobby. wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:21am:
Karnal wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:10am:
Soren wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 9:14pm:
Karnal wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:33pm:
Doesn’t the Quran also make the recommendation to treat strangers as friends, and welcome them as guests?

As long as they are the right kind of musualman. Otherwise beheading is also an option.




You’ve been reading Freud on Man’s Soul again, haven’t you.

Who’s a clever boy then?

Sometimes an old boy is just an old boy.




These Muslims will do whatever their old book tells them - they worry me.



what you mean bobby is..

WHAT THEIR CURRENT INTERPRETATION OF THE BOOK IS..

or maybe who is spouting THEIR version of the book.... in dark corners of the world..
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #144 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 9:50am  
[url][/url]Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 5:32pm:
Has anyone heard of the White Helmets? They're incredibly brave Syrian civilians who rescue people. They have a policy of no discrimination over race or religion. Whenever there is a bombing or a massacre, they rush out and assist where they can. It's a very uplifting story.

I hope stories of heroes like these get some air time here - for balance if nothing else.

https://www.whitehelmets.org/
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Karnal
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #145 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 1:36pm  
Bobby. wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:21am:
Karnal wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:10am:
Soren wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 9:14pm:
Karnal wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:33pm:
Doesn’t the Quran also make the recommendation to treat strangers as friends, and welcome them as guests?

As long as they are the right kind of musualman. Otherwise beheading is also an option.




You’ve been reading Freud on Man’s Soul again, haven’t you.

Who’s a clever boy then?

Sometimes an old boy is just an old boy.




These Muslims will do whatever their old book tells them - they worry me.


Yeah - funny how their old book tells them suicide bombings and random beheadings are haram.

These Muslims are doing whatever they want in spite of their old book - just as Christians in the West banging on about killing them all and letting Gud sort it out are going against their old book.

It's the one thing we all have in common: no one pays any attention to the books.
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #146 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 6:39pm  


ISIL completely fabricated enemy by US: Former CIA contractor

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/28/376913/isil-completely-fabricated-enemy-...

ISIL completely fabricated enemy by US: Former CIA contractor

...

Former CIA contractor Steven Kelley says that the ISIL terrorist group is a completely fabricated enemy created and funded by the United States.

“This is a completely fabricated enemy,” he said in a phone interview with Press TV from Anaheim, California on Thursday.

“The funding is completely from the United States and its allies and for people to think that this enemy is something that needs to be attacked in Syria or Iraq is a farce because obviously this is something that we create it, we control and only now it has become inconvenient for us to attack this group as a legitimate enemy,” Kelley added.

He made the remarks as US President Barack Obama is under pressure to seek congressional approval before expanding Washington’s military air campaign against ISIL targets from Iraq into neighboring Syria.

The Pentagon has already launched at least 100 airstrikes on ISIL positions in northern Iraq since Obama authorized the use of force against the terrorist group earlier this month.

The White House insists it does not need explicit congressional authorization for those operations because they are intended to protect American personnel and interests inside the Arab country.

White House press secretary Josh Earnest said Monday that Obama “will not hesitate to use his authority” to keep Americans safe, but added that the president was “committed to coordinating and consulting with Congress” on a decision to hit ISIL targets in Syria.

“If you want to get to the root of the problem and remove this organization, the first thing they need to do is to remove the funding and take care of entities responsible for the creation of this group,” Kelley said.

“I believe that this ISIS group would probably go away, would be easily defeated by the armies of [Syrian President] Bashar Assad,” he said.

AGB/AGB
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #147 - Sep 4th, 2014 at 3:04pm  
Yadda wrote on Aug 24th, 2014 at 10:23am:
"ISIS has nothing to do with Islam"

Yasmina Haifi








NO-ONE would seriously dispute THAT bit
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'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'


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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #148 - Sep 4th, 2014 at 6:50pm  
You don't see any similarities between ISIS and what Muhammed did?
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #149 - Sep 4th, 2014 at 8:04pm  
better introduce him to the wiki FD.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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