Australian Politics Forum - ISIS is a Zionist plot

freediver

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #75 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:12am

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Why should Australian Muslims feel responsible?

Because that is how you solve problems - by taking responsibility for them. If you leave it to the rest of the Australian society to take responsibility for it, we will, but don't expect it to reflect well on Muslims.

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Nothing good will come of making Muslims grovel to be allowed into the fold.

How about trying to stamp out Islamic extremism? Doing more to prevent Australian Muslims traveling overseas for jihad?

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They don't need to accept responsibility and they don't need to be ashamed. In fact, we need to strongly discourage that. The last thing we want to force is a feeling of connection between mainstream Muslims and extremists. They are unrelated and if we want it to stay that way, we should reinforce it at every opportunity.

So if Muslims feel ashamed of terrorists they will become terrorists?

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No, a more fitting analogy would be that the general Catholic population don't need to feel responsible or ashamed about the abusers.

I bet plenty of catholics do feel genuine shame about what happened, and also feel it is up to the catholic community to stamp it out. I am yet to see a catholic insist it is wrong to deride the church over pedophilia in case they start to feel a connection with the pedophiles.

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It is important for Muslim leaders to speak out in condemnation

There you go, that is taking responsibility. Not so hard is it? Now if we could just take it one step further to actually doing something about it.

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Typical identity politics. Either there is a 'Muslim community' that clearly produces enemies of this country - or there isn't, in which case why the hell are we giving them funding??

They are a community when they are a victim of unfair association with terrorists. But they are individuals when they are terrorists.

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HIGH-PROFILE Muslim leader Dr Jamal Rifi says he will happily buy “a one-way ticket” for any Islamic radicals wanting to leave Australia.

See, even he is funding terrorists.

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Well connected with the Muslim community, are you?

Odd thing to say for someone who insists it is not up to the Muslim community. Either the people who are well connected with the community take responsibility, or the rest of us step in and take responsibility.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #76 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:15am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:59am:

Extremist Muslims have rejected mainstream Islam and the Muslim community.

Nonsense Annie - they are getting a wink and a nod from "mainstream islam", and I can prove it:

- if mainstream leaders declare their condemnation but don't follow to the letter the "correct" condemnation script - they are practically cheering the terrorists on.

- if mainsteam leaders condemn terrorists "properly", its merely a PR stunt, designed to pull the wool over Australia's eyes, in order to "bide their time" (FD's words) before the caliphate-takeover plan is ready.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Bobby.

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #77 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:21am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:58am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:54am:

cods wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:50am:

I havent looked on them the same since the child swinging the severed head....

"them" as in muslims, or mentally ill psychopaths?

I thought they were following the teachings in God's book?

God wrote this book & you have to follow it no matter how barbaric & insane it is.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #78 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:22am

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:12am:

How about trying to stamp out Islamic extremism? Doing more to prevent Australian Muslims traveling overseas for jihad?

Gee thats meaningful FD - what exactly is your measure?

Whats the "acceptable" number of jihadists going over before we declare its "doing enough"? Is there going to be a point in which we give muslim leaders a pat on the back for the number of people they have prevented going over?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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cods

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #79 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:24am

well said FD..

.some thrive on victimhood...if you treated us better or didnt expect too much from us.. thing would be ok.. yep thats how I see it..

its all about us accepting them... they dont have to accept us or our ways..

you are right in a way about paying their fares one way to fight the good fight...

but what happens when they stay here.. hating everything within reach.. do they not expand their hatred and turn it inwards.towards our country

.. isnt this maybe what groups like ISIS want..they thrive on people being singled out....

in this case preventing someone who by a technicality hasnt broken any law...

from travelling overseas..

to me thats a catch 22.... it solves nothing and causes the hate to simmer...

this isnt like saving a drug addict from himself..

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #80 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:33am

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:15am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:59am:

Extremist Muslims have rejected mainstream Islam and the Muslim community.

Nonsense Annie - they are getting a wink and a nod from "mainstream islam", and I can prove it:

- if mainstream leaders declare their condemnation but don't follow to the letter the "correct" condemnation script - they are practically cheering the terrorists on.

- if mainsteam leaders condemn terrorists "properly", its merely a PR stunt, designed to pull the wool over Australia's eyes, in order to "bide their time" (FD's words) before the caliphate-takeover plan is ready.

Does FD's dissecting of posts irritate you? I refuse to engage with him when he does it. It removes all context and practically becomes an argument on semantics. You should do the same. FD thrives on engagement about Islam with you in particular because you are the only Muslim here who is a match in intelligent debate since Abu left, so you can set the bar. Give him a time out when he misbehaves.

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cods

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #81 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:35am

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:22am:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:12am:

How about trying to stamp out Islamic extremism? Doing more to prevent Australian Muslims traveling overseas for jihad?

Gee thats meaningful FD - what exactly is your measure?

Whats the "acceptable" number of jihadists going over before we declare its "doing enough"? Is there going to be a point in which we give muslim leaders a pat on the back for the number of people they have prevented going over?

you sound quite sarcastic...so lets do bugger all is that what you are saying??>.

Muslim leaders seem to have a huge impact on what young muslims learn??..or am I mistaken?..

so for those who care I have never been in a muslim school...but we have seen the book shops that spread the hate word so we know its out there for those that want it..

I think its a sad fact of life if those who believe it is wrong...and that goes for all walks of life..

and they do not speak up...then they are no better than the ones that go about wrecking the world for wreckings sake..

does anyone really know what ISIS want from Syria??.. have they actually spelt it out?

they think killing someone who has nothing to do with their war will stop any outside interference...

how wrong they are.....

but to what end is this all about Gandalf.

is it about killing all Christians??????...

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freediver

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #82 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:41am

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Gee thats meaningful FD - what exactly is your measure?

100

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Whats the "acceptable" number of jihadists going over before we declare its "doing enough"?

This isn't an exam Gandalf. But if you insist, the correct answer is zero.

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Is there going to be a point in which we give muslim leaders a pat on the back for the number of people they have prevented going over?

If 100 is a good outcome, then the problem is far worse than we thought.

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but what happens when they stay here.. hating everything within reach.. do they not expand their hatred and turn it inwards.towards our country

If they are our citizens, it is our responsibility to deal with them.

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in this case preventing someone who by a technicality hasnt broken any law...
from travelling overseas..
to me thats a catch 22.... it solves nothing and causes the hate to simmer...

It's better than letting them rape and pillage their way across the middle east. If every country reigned in their Muslims, ISIS would not have as many fighters. We are not going to escape fallout from this just because it is happening in the middle east.

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Does FD's dissecting of posts irritate you? I refuse to engage with him when he does it.

Yes much better to wave your arms in the air and sign kumbayah.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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cods

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #83 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:53am

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:41am:

If they are our citizens, it is our responsibility to deal with them

how would you deal with them?freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:41am:

It's better than letting them rape and pillage their way across the middle east. If every country reigned in their Muslims, ISIS would not have as many fighters. We are not going to escape fallout from this just because it is happening in the middle east.

how do you know when a person is a violent jihadist?

are you suggesting no muslims be allowed to travel overseas???????..

how do you tell a goody from a baddie ??.

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Soren

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #84 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 11:01am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:53am:

I am sad that you have to resort to dishonesty instead of presenting a sound argument to support your view. There are many ways in which the Muslim community show responsibility for its members. They support their most needy with financial and housing assistance, for example.

What would you have them do about extremism other than promote moderation? It is the job of the police to monitor criminal activity.

This is an entirely dishonest stance which has been adopted by almost all Muslims.

Muslims should stamp out the islamists and the extremists NOT for Abbott's sake but for Islam's sake. Islam is in their hands and for them and you to say that they are not responsible for the way Islam is is dishonest and cowardly.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #85 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 11:07am

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 10:41am:

This isn't an exam Gandalf. But if you insist, the correct answer is zero.

Sometimes a question is just a question FD. But by all means, if you prefer not to clarify what is a completely arbitrary and meaningless measure, then don't bring it up in the first place

So are you saying that unless there are zero of the half million Australian muslims going to an overseas conflict, the Australian muslim community has failed and must be pilloried?

Also, a point of clarification, of those 100 or so over there, not all are known to be fighting with islamists - many are doing humanitarian work with refugees across the borders.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #86 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 11:11am

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Sometimes a question is just a question FD. But by all means, if you prefer not to clarify what is a completely arbitrary and meaningless measure, then don't bring it up in the first place

The number of Muslims fighting for terrorists overseas is hardly arbitrary and meaningless. And it was you who demanded a measurement, not me.

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So are you saying that unless there are zero of the half million Australian muslims going to an overseas conflict, the Australian muslim community has failed and must be pilloried?

No. Like I said, this is not an exam. The more Muslims themselves take responsibility for Islamic extremism, the less they will be blamed and pilloried, and the less that the broader non-Muslim community will have to do the job for them.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who.. Reply #87 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 11:13am Why are Muslims beheading each other? Which side is right, the beheaders or the beheadees? Which side is doing Allah's work? Or can both sides be wrong? Both right? Personally, I ordered a cheeseburger. Please explain.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #88 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 11:29am

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 11:11am:

The number of Muslims fighting for terrorists overseas is hardly arbitrary and meaningless. And it was you who demanded a measurement, not me.

The statement "doing more" by definition demands a measurement. If you never wanted to define what that means, why bring it up?

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 11:11am:

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So are you saying that unless there are zero of the half million Australian muslims going to an overseas conflict, the Australian muslim community has failed and must be pilloried?

No.

I'm confused FD - so zero is not the right answer after all?

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 11:11am:

The more Muslims themselves take responsibility for Islamic extremism, the less they will be blamed and pilloried

"The more"? "The less"? - Oh dear, I can feel more exam questions coming on here FD. At what point do you determine that the muslims are doing enough? You already said zero is not the answer, but 100 is too much. So what is it - 99? 1? How do you know the muslims are not doing all they can already? By your non-existent knowledge of what goes on in the Australian muslim community?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: ISIS is a Zionist plot - says a moslem woman who..
Reply #89 - Aug 31^st, 2014 at 11:42am

Soren wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 11:01am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:53am:

I am sad that you have to resort to dishonesty instead of presenting a sound argument to support your view. There are many ways in which the Muslim community show responsibility for its members. They support their most needy with financial and housing assistance, for example.

What would you have them do about extremism other than promote moderation? It is the job of the police to monitor criminal activity.

This is an entirely dishonest stance which has been adopted by almost all Muslims.

Muslims should stamp out the islamists and the extremists NOT for Abbott's sake but for Islam's sake. Islam is in their hands and for them and you to say that they are not responsible for the way Islam is is dishonest and cowardly.

Individual Muslims should be held accountable only for how they themselves practice.

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