Australian Politics Forum - A beheading a day in Saudi

Baronvonrort

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #30 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 1:06am

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 12:38am:

Islam has been hijacked by the hanbali fanatics who flagrantly violate the Quranic principles of free and rational thought - in favour of the rigid ahadith. This has not always been the case - during the golden age the islamic world was dominated by free and independent thinking.

yet at the same time ridiculing muslims who advocate a reassessment of islamic doctrine in a genuine effort to rid the religion of that very extremism and violence. Taking the stubborn view that islam is not reformable and that it will always be violent and extreme - absolutely, never ever - is not going to achieve anything - given the simple fact that a religion of over 1 billion people are not just going to suddenly vanish from the face of the earth. Its time you and sprint and soren and baron etc etc stopped being such spoil sports and lend some support to the reformation movement, instead of constantly mocking it.

The freethinkers in the golden age were Persian atheists, you have already conceded al Razi was atheist, all you have is al haytham who wrote his book of optics while under house arrest and feigning madness because he feared a caliph.

The shiites do not follow the sunni ahadith,this is a major doctrinal difference between these sects.mind you these doctrinal differences come from books that were written hundreds of years after Mo died.

Quran only muslims are increasing in numbers,Hamza Yusef from the USA is well known,he claims only the Quran has divine origins.

As for reformation, well that is long overdue. Roll Eyes

Political Islam is what muslims have to discard along with death penalty for apostasy,blasphemy,atheists,homosexuals,witches,etc.

I like Dr Zuhdi Jasser who is the President for the American Islamic forum for democracy, he writes some good stuff about separation of mosque and state,here you go Gandalf check him out-
aifdemocracy.org

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40769 Gender:	Re: A beheading a day in Saudi Reply #31 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 1:35am the Islamic golden age ended about 750 years ago. it's a bit too far past there to harken back to it Gandalf. if islam has been hijacked since then, it was pretty flawed, wasn't it ?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #32 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 8:27am

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 1:06am:

The freethinkers in the golden age were Persian atheists, you have already conceded al Razi was atheist, all you have is al haytham who wrote his book of optics while under house arrest and feigning madness because he feared a caliph.

So you are really going to run with this story that in around 5-600 years of unprecedented intellectual flowering, in which the greatest and largest intellectual centres the world had ever seen sprung up - produced a grand total of 2 non-muslim, non-arabic free thinkers?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 1:35am:

the Islamic golden age ended about 750 years ago.
it's a bit too far past there to harken back to it Gandalf.

if islam has been hijacked since then, it was pretty flawed, wasn't it ?

Not if you compare it to the pattern of just about every civilization in history - where a political and cultural prosperous period of about 500 years followed by a long period of stagnation is about standard. Sometimes it happens in reverse - as was the case with christianity. Jewish civilization went up and down like a yo yo for millennia.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #33 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 1:30pm

Quote:

Not if you compare it to the pattern of just about every civilization in history - where a political and cultural prosperous period of about 500 years followed by a long period of stagnation is about standard.

Can you give some examples? The Roman Empire is the only obvious one to me. Most didn't last that long.

Quote:

The absurdity of the compulsion claim becomes instantly apparent by the simple phrase in the Quran "let there be no compulsion in religion" - amongst many many other similar sentiments.

Yes, this is quite absurd when compared against all the efforts of Muhammed and his followers to compel.

Quote:

Islam has been hijacked by the hanbali fanatics who flagrantly violate the Quranic principles of free and rational thought

Might as well start with Muhammed himself hijacking the peaceful tolerant Islam to build an expansionist military empire.

Quote:

What riles me FD, is critics like you, who spend your life ridiculing muslims for succumbing to extremism and violence - yet at the same time ridiculing muslims who advocate a reassessment of islamic doctrine in a genuine effort to rid the religion of that very extremism and violence.

I have been asking you some very simple questions about your reinterpretation of Islam. All I get in response is excuses for why you cannot possibly respond.

Quote:

Its time you and sprint and soren and baron etc etc stopped being such spoil sports and lend some support to the reformation movement, instead of constantly mocking it.

I would like to know what it is before supporting it. Just because you label it a reform does not mean it is fundamentally different. You are floundering to come up with anything that can claim consistency with Islam while not being open hostile to modern western values.

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« Last Edit: Aug 27^th, 2014 at 1:42pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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ian

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #34 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 2:06pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 12:59am:

The Quran mentions the Torah - as a previous and now obsolete revelation. Big difference.

The Quran, according to islam, is the final and complete revelation of God's word. Muslims need only "use" (there's that word again) the Quran (and the ahadith) for a complete reference of islamic doctrine. Muslims today do not "use" the Torah to reference islamic doctrine - because it has been abrogated by the Quran.

certainly has not been abrogated. let me post this reference again. you should know this.

Quote:

The Islamic view of the Christian Bible is based on the belief that the Bible is revelation from God that became distorted or corrupted (tahrif). The Qur'an – the revelation Muslims believe was given to the prophet Muhammad as a remedy – identifies three sets of books from the Bible as genuine divine revelation given to trusted messengers: the Tawrat (Torah) given to Musa (Moses), the Zabur (Psalms) given to Daud (David) and the Injil (Gospel) given to Isa (Jesus). Together, the Qur'an, these books and the now-unknown Suhuf Ibrahim ("Scrolls of Abraham") constitute Islam's scripture. Belief that this scripture is divinely inspired is one of Islam's fundamental tenets, but, since all scripture before the Qur'an is also held to have become corrupted, Muslims are directed to take guidance from the Qur'an alone.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #35 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 3:36pm

ian wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 2:06pm:

let me post this reference again

Gee Ian - what if I was to tell you that the random person on the internet who wrote that wiki passage without any references - is speaking out of his/her arse? The way he directly contradicts himself in the one paragraph should be a bit of a give away. Or perhaps you can assist him and give me an actual reference from the Quran where it says the Torah and Psalms etc "constitute Islam's scripture".

Also...

ian wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 2:06pm:

certainly has not been abrogated.

from your own source:

Quote:

since all scripture before the Qur'an is also held to have become corrupted, Muslims are directed to take guidance from the Qur'an alone.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #36 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm

ian wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 2:06pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 12:59am:

The Quran mentions the Torah - as a previous and now obsolete revelation. Big difference.

The Quran, according to islam, is the final and complete revelation of God's word. Muslims need only "use" (there's that word again) the Quran (and the ahadith) for a complete reference of islamic doctrine. Muslims today do not "use" the Torah to reference islamic doctrine - because it has been abrogated by the Quran.

certainly has not been abrogated. let me post this reference again. you should know this.

Quote:

The Islamic view of the Christian Bible is based on the belief that the Bible is revelation from God that became distorted or corrupted (tahrif). The Qur'an – the revelation Muslims believe was given to the prophet Muhammad as a remedy – identifies three sets of books from the Bible as genuine divine revelation given to trusted messengers: the Tawrat (Torah) given to Musa (Moses), the Zabur (Psalms) given to Daud (David) and the Injil (Gospel) given to Isa (Jesus). Together, the Qur'an, these books and the now-unknown Suhuf Ibrahim ("Scrolls of Abraham") constitute Islam's scripture.Belief that this scripture is divinely inspired is one of Islam's fundamental tenets, but, since all scripture before the Qur'an is also held to have become corrupted, Muslims are directed to take guidance from the Qur'an alone.

The previous texts have been abrogated by the Quran, Gandalf is a muslim he does know this as do all muslims,

personal attack removed]

The torah/buy-bull have been corrupted by man ,this is why Allah sent Mohammad to fix this problem,Allah has protected the Quran from corruption if you read the Quran there is even a verse on this.
Muslims claim the Quran has never been corrupted because Allah has protected it from corruption.

The Quran abrogates the torah/buy-bull because they have been corrupted, your link even states those texts have been corrupted and muslims should only follow the Quran, do you comprehend what your link says.

I don't know why i even bother

edit

.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18733 Gender:	Re: A beheading a day in Saudi Reply #37 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 3:46pm ian wrote on Aug 26^th, 2014 at 11:24pm: I wouldnt mind a good religious argument but these proles are totally clueless and choose not to educate themselves. You are the one who is totally clueless, try educating yourself.
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ian

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #38 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 4:37pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

ian wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 2:06pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 12:59am:

The Quran mentions the Torah - as a previous and now obsolete revelation. Big difference.

The Quran, according to islam, is the final and complete revelation of God's word. Muslims need only "use" (there's that word again) the Quran (and the ahadith) for a complete reference of islamic doctrine. Muslims today do not "use" the Torah to reference islamic doctrine - because it has been abrogated by the Quran.

certainly has not been abrogated. let me post this reference again. you should know this.

Quote:

The Islamic view of the Christian Bible is based on the belief that the Bible is revelation from God that became distorted or corrupted (tahrif). The Qur'an – the revelation Muslims believe was given to the prophet Muhammad as a remedy – identifies three sets of books from the Bible as genuine divine revelation given to trusted messengers: the Tawrat (Torah) given to Musa (Moses), the Zabur (Psalms) given to Daud (David) and the Injil (Gospel) given to Isa (Jesus). Together, the Qur'an, these books and the now-unknown Suhuf Ibrahim ("Scrolls of Abraham") constitute Islam's scripture.Belief that this scripture is divinely inspired is one of Islam's fundamental tenets, but, since all scripture before the Qur'an is also held to have become corrupted, Muslims are directed to take guidance from the Qur'an alone.

The previous texts have been abrogated by the Quran, Gandalf is a muslim he does know this as do all muslims,

personal attack removed]

The torah/buy-bull have been corrupted by man ,this is why Allah sent Mohammad to fix this problem,Allah has protected the Quran from corruption if you read the Quran there is even a verse on this.
Muslims claim the Quran has never been corrupted because Allah has protected it from corruption.

The Quran abrogates the torah/buy-bull because they have been corrupted, your link even states those texts have been corrupted and muslims should only follow the Quran, do you comprehend what your link says.

I don't know why i even bother

edit

.

How hard is it to understand something that is in black and white right in front of you and can be researched so easily? ? I feel like a rocket scicentist next to you people sometimes, Let me highlight it again for you.
Quote:

The Qur'an – the revelation Muslims believe was given to the prophet Muhammad as a remedy – identifies three sets of books from the Bible as genuine divine revelation given to trusted messengers: the Tawrat (Torah) given to Musa (Moses), the Zabur (Psalms) given to Daud (David) and the Injil (Gospel) given to Isa (Jesus)

. Together, the Qur'an, these books and the now-unknown Suhuf Ibrahim ("Scrolls of Abraham") constitute Islam's scripture

.Belief that this scripture is divinely inspired is one of Islam's fundamental tenets, but, [highlight]since all scripture before the Qur'an is also held to have become corrupted, Muslims are directed to take guidance from the Qur'an alone.

if you still cant understand that Islamic scripture is in part scripture from the Old testament then you really are dumb as dogsh!t.

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« Last Edit: Aug 27^th, 2014 at 4:43pm by ian »

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ian

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #39 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 4:41pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

[
The previous texts have been abrogated by the Quran, Gandalf is a muslim he does know this as do all muslims,

personal attack removed]

nah, this is why i questioned Gandalf as being a real Muslim. Its obvious he wasnt aware that Islamic scripture is not only the Quran , and neither were you. I also suggest you look up the word abrogate so you know what it means, if you do at least one of you may end up using the word correctly.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #40 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 5:17pm

ian wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 4:37pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

ian wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 2:06pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 12:59am:

The Quran mentions the Torah - as a previous and now obsolete revelation. Big difference.

The Quran, according to islam, is the final and complete revelation of God's word. Muslims need only "use" (there's that word again) the Quran (and the ahadith) for a complete reference of islamic doctrine. Muslims today do not "use" the Torah to reference islamic doctrine - because it has been abrogated by the Quran.

certainly has not been abrogated. let me post this reference again. you should know this.

Quote:

The Islamic view of the Christian Bible is based on the belief that the Bible is revelation from God that became distorted or corrupted (tahrif). The Qur'an – the revelation Muslims believe was given to the prophet Muhammad as a remedy – identifies three sets of books from the Bible as genuine divine revelation given to trusted messengers: the Tawrat (Torah) given to Musa (Moses), the Zabur (Psalms) given to Daud (David) and the Injil (Gospel) given to Isa (Jesus). Together, the Qur'an, these books and the now-unknown Suhuf Ibrahim ("Scrolls of Abraham") constitute Islam's scripture.Belief that this scripture is divinely inspired is one of Islam's fundamental tenets, but, since all scripture before the Qur'an is also held to have become corrupted, Muslims are directed to take guidance from the Qur'an alone.

The previous texts have been abrogated by the Quran, Gandalf is a muslim he does know this as do all muslims,

personal attack removed]

The torah/buy-bull have been corrupted by man ,this is why Allah sent Mohammad to fix this problem,Allah has protected the Quran from corruption if you read the Quran there is even a verse on this.
Muslims claim the Quran has never been corrupted because Allah has protected it from corruption.

The Quran abrogates the torah/buy-bull because they have been corrupted, your link even states those texts have been corrupted and muslims should only follow the Quran, do you comprehend what your link says.

I don't know why i even bother

edit

.

How hard is it to understand something that is in black and white right in front of you and can be researched so easily? ? I feel like a rocket scicentist next to you people sometimes, Let me highlight it again for you.
Quote:

The Qur'an – the revelation Muslims believe was given to the prophet Muhammad as a remedy – identifies three sets of books from the Bible as genuine divine revelation given to trusted messengers: the Tawrat (Torah) given to Musa (Moses), the Zabur (Psalms) given to Daud (David) and the Injil (Gospel) given to Isa (Jesus). Together, the Qur'an, these books and the now-unknown Suhuf Ibrahim ("Scrolls of Abraham") constitute Islam's scripture[/size].Belief that this scripture is divinely inspired is one of Islam's fundamental tenets, but, [highlight]since all scripture before the Qur'an is also held to have become corrupted, Muslims are directed to take guidance from the Qur'an alone.

if you still cant understand that Islamic scripture is in part scripture from the Old testament then you really are dumb as dogsh!t.

You must be delusional as well as stupid if you feel like an Aerospace engineer, no chance of you being accepted at uni.

Take note of the highlighted part of your link which says all scripture before the Quran has been corrupted.

Muslims do not believe Jesus was the son of god, muslims believe Jesus was just a prophet and God does not have a son.

You are the one who is dumb as dogshit,i linked the oldest Islamic website on the internet which said the Quran abrogated previous texts,Gandalf even confirmed this yet you insist you know better, i dont see any point in arguing with a dumbfukistani like you.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #41 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 5:22pm

ian wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 4:41pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

[
The previous texts have been abrogated by the Quran, Gandalf is a muslim he does know this as do all muslims,

personal attack removed]

nah, this is why i questioned Gandalf as being a real Muslim. Its obvious he wasnt aware that Islamic scripture is not only the Quran , and neither were you. I also suggest you look up the word abrogate so you know what it means, if you do at least one of you may end up using the word correctly.

Gandalf is a muslim.

Islamic scripture for Gandalf being from the sunni side of Islam would be the Quran,Sahih al Bukhari,Sahih Muslim and Abu Dawud.

Islamic scriptures for the shia will be the Quran and al Kafi.

No muslims use the torah or bible they are outdated obsolete texts that have been corrupted by man.
The Quran has never been corrupted,Allah protects the Quran from corruption.
quran.com/15/9

You are clueless about every topic you post in, i rate you with spot of borg for idiocy.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Yadda

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #42 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 5:28pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

.....The torah/buy-bull have been corrupted by man ,this is why Allah sent Mohammad to fix this problem,Allah has protected the Quran from corruption if you read the Quran there is even a verse on this.
Muslims claim the Quran has never been corrupted because Allah has protected it from corruption.

The Quran abrogates the torah/buy-bull because they have been corrupted, your link even states those texts have been corrupted and muslims should only follow the Quran, do you comprehend what your link says.

Allah states in teh inerrant Koran that he protected 1/ the Torah, and 2/ the Gospel of Jesus, and 3/ the Koran.

But moslems claim that the Torah and Gospel of Jesus, were corrupted - BUT NOT THE KORAN.

QUESTION;
After stating that those scriptures were under Allah's protection, why wasn't Allah able to protect 1/ the Torah, and 2/ the Gospel of Jesus - AS ALLAH HAS DECLARED ?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295396564/0#0
Quote:

Here are some of the Koran verses, which refer to, 'the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)'...

"Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)."
Koran 3.2-3

"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein......
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:......."
Koran 5.46-48

"If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side.........Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
Koran 5.66-69
n.b. In the above quote, note the use of the present tense, 'who follow'.

"Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel;....."
Koran 57.27

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21884 A cat with a view	Re: A beheading a day in Saudi Reply #43 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 5:31pm Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 5:22pm: Gandalf is a muslim. Islamic scripture for Gandalf being from the sunni side of Islam.... Baron, Do you believe that Gandalf is a Sunni ??????? Has he ever declared it to be so ?
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Baronvonrort

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Re: A beheading a day in Saudi
Reply #44 - Aug 27^th, 2014 at 5:36pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 5:31pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 27^th, 2014 at 5:22pm:

Gandalf is a muslim.

Islamic scripture for Gandalf being from the sunni side of Islam....

Baron,

Do you believe that Gandalf is a Sunni ???????

Has he ever declared it to be so ?

He recognises and has cited the sunni ahadith which is something a shia would not do.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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