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Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary (Read 2594 times)
crocodile
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #15 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:30pm
 
King FriYAY II wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:54pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
This sort of thing is going on all over the place.

This is the result of a conservative government. wage levels are being deliberately pushed down and is a secretive government supported push on wage levels. It is related to the failure of workchoices - working within the fair work system to achieve the same type of results.

This is not related to the economy or business requirements it is just conservative dogma in action. This lines up with the attack on penalty rates etc.


Wages need to come down. They have been going up in most cases because it is either pay up or put up with union pressure.

You'd need 1000 cans of CRC to clean the rust of you, fair dinkum.




More horseshit. Real wages growth has been pretty awful for most of the last decade. Declining with productivity. Funny about that.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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imcrookonit
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #16 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:59pm
 
One year in and Abbott’s carefully crafted attack on rights at work is on track and only just warming up

07 September, 2014 | Media Release While the cruel and unfair changes to education, health and the pension have dominated Tony Abbott’s first year in office, his Government’s carefully crafted attack on workers rights has been gearing up in the background.

“The Abbott Government has a clear agenda to chip away at workplace laws protecting workers’ rights, wages and conditions by ‘evolution not revolution’,” said ACTU President Ged Kearney.

This includes:

    The Fair Work Amendment Bill that goes further than the Howard Government did in stripping away protections around individual contracts
    A Productivity Commission review of Australia’s entire system of workplace laws with draft terms of reference that may as well have been written by big business
    Plans to set up an appeals body allowing employers to challenge and overrule decisions by the independent umpire, the Fair Work Commission
    Targeting the construction industry with different and harsher laws than any other industry through the Australian Building and Construction Commission and Building Code
    The Bill to amend the Fair Entitlement Guarantee will cut protection of workers’ redundancy payments where their employer is insolvent
    Review of transfer of business protections for state public sector workers where their work is outsourced as well as the rights and protections for outworkers in the textile, clothing and footwear industry
    The Registered Organisations Bill that will hamstring unions in red tape ensuring they can not effectively represent workers or campaign to raise community awareness
    Wasting $54 million on a political witch hunt through the Royal Commission

“The Abbott Government can repeat their mantra of ‘evolution not revolution’ all they like - but no one should be fooled, there is a comprehensive, calculated plan to strip away workers’ rights and wages,” said Ms Kearney.

“Remember, this is the same language the Liberals used to describe their workplace policies last time. All that has really changed is the name.

    “This is evolution, not revolution, and there is still a long way to go."
    Liberal Senator Nick Minchin, speech to HR Nicholls Society, 3 March 2006


“Whatever the Government calls it and however they plan to do it, the end result is still the same – workers will be worse off under Tony Abbott’s anti-worker agenda. Just because they’re not shouting it from the rooftops doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

“The Government has no mandate for these changes. It’s an attack on the rights of millions of Australian workers that goes way beyond what was flagged at the election.

“We’ve seen Tony Abbott target the most vulnerable in our society and attack the living standards of all Australians in his first year in office – there is no doubt he has workers in his sights for the second year.”

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longweekend58
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #17 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 5:33pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:41pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:38pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
This sort of thing is going on all over the place.

This is the result of a conservative government. wage levels are being deliberately pushed down and is a secretive government supported push on wage levels. It is related to the failure of workchoices - working within the fair work system to achieve the same type of results.

This is not related to the economy or business requirements it is just conservative dogma in action. This lines up with the attack on penalty rates etc.



who knows... maybe this is why unemployment is dropping??? 



It has been going up till the last result which has gone back to where it was - i.e. back to just a bad result 6.4% or so.


it was going up under Gillard and rudd and now has peaked and coming back down... under Liberals.  you cant have it both ways.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Dnarever
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #18 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:28pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 5:33pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:41pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:38pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
This sort of thing is going on all over the place.

This is the result of a conservative government. wage levels are being deliberately pushed down and is a secretive government supported push on wage levels. It is related to the failure of workchoices - working within the fair work system to achieve the same type of results.

This is not related to the economy or business requirements it is just conservative dogma in action. This lines up with the attack on penalty rates etc.



who knows... maybe this is why unemployment is dropping??? 



It has been going up till the last result which has gone back to where it was - i.e. back to just a bad result 6.4% or so.


it was going up under Gillard and rudd and now has peaked and coming back down... under Liberals.  you cant have it both ways.


When you just type the words that you wish are true you undermine your own credibility.

Rates went up a bit with the GFC as expected and unavoidable but on the whole were remarkable stable till the conservatives took power.

The ABS figures were posted just the other day and they are at odds with your opinion wish.

The reality is that last month we seen the worst unemployment numbers in 15 over years, this month we see a big improvement back to where it was.

This asks a number of questions ?

Was the last sample an aberration or was it the result of a one off, is this result in this same category as well or are we really seeing the start of a recovery. I can say that I don't know but the next few releases should tell us all.

I personally think that we you see two adjacent samples which are both going to the extreme in opposite directions it is almost certain to be unreliable.
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« Last Edit: Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:36pm by Dnarever »  
 
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longweekend58
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #19 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:47pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:28pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 5:33pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:41pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:38pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
This sort of thing is going on all over the place.

This is the result of a conservative government. wage levels are being deliberately pushed down and is a secretive government supported push on wage levels. It is related to the failure of workchoices - working within the fair work system to achieve the same type of results.

This is not related to the economy or business requirements it is just conservative dogma in action. This lines up with the attack on penalty rates etc.



who knows... maybe this is why unemployment is dropping??? 



It has been going up till the last result which has gone back to where it was - i.e. back to just a bad result 6.4% or so.


it was going up under Gillard and rudd and now has peaked and coming back down... under Liberals.  you cant have it both ways.


When you just type the words that you wish are true you undermine your own credibility.

Rates went up a bit with the GFC as expected and unavoidable but on the whole were remarkable stable till the conservatives took power.

The ABS figures were posted just the other day and they are at odds with your opinion wish.

The reality is that last month we seen the worst unemployment numbers in 15 over years, this month we see a big improvement back to where it was.

This asks a number of questions ?

Was the last sample an aberration or was it the result of a one off, is this result in this same category as well or are we really seeing the start of a recovery. I can say that I don't know but the next few releases should tell us all.

I personally think that we you see two adjacent samples which are both going to the extreme in opposite directions it is almost certain to be unreliable.


I agree we need to get more results to see if last month was an aberration or not.  but does that not erase all the BS you and your lot were going on about rapidly risign unemployment?  if not, it allows me to crow about rapidly DROPPING unemployment.  which is it?

and please don't pretend that unemployment hasn't been trending up for a couple years now.  it didn't start a year ago and as you well know.  and employment stats are always behind the usual economic indicators and takes a long time to change.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #20 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:48pm
 
Whatever the real rate of unemployment - it will never go away until We, The People, divest ourselves of this Tag Team of two 'sides' of politics here - each intent on some selfish and unthinking and unfeeling agenda that focuses on freebies and handouts to its particular 'chosen ones'.

We've had the 'socialist' side install and amplify affirmative action as a short term equalisation measure and seen affirmative action become THE way of life for those groups chosen for it and our right to earn equally and fairly removed from us to favour them and our society destroyed as a result; we've seen the focus on 'business' and 'industry' by the 'capitalist' side, and all we've seen is the death of industry after industry here.

Until a government of real vision comes along and proceeds to re-introduce some valid infrastructure including training opportunities in CRAFTSMAN work rather than some idea of sitting down all day and operating a computer for many dollars and sets about restoring GENUINE equality - this country will never see the light of day again.

I predicted, during a computer programming course in 1983 - as part of the required 'humanities' segment - that there would be a permanent high level of unemployment into the foreseeable future.

Unless and until some drastic changes are made and we divest ourselves of this Tag Team - nothing will change for the good - only for the bad.
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« Last Edit: Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:57pm by Grappler Deep State Feller »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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longweekend58
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #21 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:57pm
 
Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:48pm:
Whatever the real rate of unemployment - it will never go away until We, The People, divest ourselves of this Tag Team of two 'sides' of politics here - each intent on some selfish and unthinking and unfeeling agenda that focuses on freebies and handouts to its particular 'chosen ones'.

We've had the 'socialist' side install and amplify affirmative action as a short term equalisation measure and seen affirmative action become THE way of life for those groups chosen for it and our right to earn equally and fairly removed from us to favour them and our society destroyed as a result; we've seen the focus on 'business' and 'industry' by the 'capitalist' side, and all we've seen is the death of industry after industry here.

Until a government of real vision comes along and proceeds to re-introduce some valid infrastructure including training opportunities in CRAFTSMAN work rather than some idea of sitting down all day and operating a computer for many dollars - this country will never see the light of day again.

I predicted, during a computer programming course in 1983 - as part of the required 'humanities' segment - that there would be a permanent high level of unemployment into the foreseeable future.

Unless and until some drastic changes are made and we divest ourselves of this Tag Team - nothing will change for the good - only for the bad.


there has ALWAYS been unemployment.  it is scarcely a modern invention.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #22 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:01pm
 
It is the LEVEL of unemployment that counts and the projections for the future - all dire.

There is no solid infrastructure that provides real jobs instead of MacJobs and short term 'full-time' jobs anywhere on the furthest horizon......

"The Horizon" - the top of the earthworks of a trench in World War I.... and all the ordinary soldier could see most of the time..... in between random death and destruction.....

Now!  Show me that horizon!  The one we can aim for!
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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longweekend58
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #23 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:07pm
 
Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:01pm:
It is the LEVEL of unemployment that counts and the projections for the future - all dire.

There is no solid infrastructure that provides real jobs instead of MacJobs and short term 'full-time' jobs anywhere on the furthest horizon......

"The Horizon" - the top of the earthworks of a trench in World War I.... and all the ordinary soldier could see most of the time..... in between random death and destruction.....

Now!  Show me that horizon!  The one we can aim for!


doom and gloom.  nothing is like the 'old days' right?

thankfully.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #24 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:19pm
 
History will absolve me - and I do not accept that a few hours a week is a 'job' by any description than that of some self-interested government fool bent on the destruction of my country from within.... both sides... we have both kinds here.. Liberal and Labor.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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longweekend58
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #25 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:49pm
 
Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:19pm:
History will absolve me - and I do not accept that a few hours a week is a 'job' by any description than that of some self-interested government fool bent on the destruction of my country from within.... both sides... we have both kinds here.. Liberal and Labor.


the mistake - among many - is that you think these part-time jobs are one-hour/week jobs.  they aren't.  you have NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that 'part-time' means 1hr/week.  and btw this definition of 'employed' has been with us for 20 years and in fact started under labor.  get over it.  35/hrs/week is also part-time.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #26 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 8:14pm
 
The point is:-

Even 25 hours a week at $20 - that so many on one side say is too much - is $500 pre-tax... hardly going to give you a home, a future, a retirement package, a car, food on the table, a night out with a prospective shag, and a little comfort and security, is it?  You can spend $400+ a week on rent.... let alone get into the home-ownership slot....

NO part-time job - unless by personal choice - is in any real sense a 'job' at all - it is survival, and what is desperately needed here and now is full employment and full-time jobs at rates which will offer a dedicated worker some hope for a solid future - instead of a gold-lined future for the likes of Tony and Joe.

That means costs have to come down as well, which also means the DEMOLITION of the current housing grab market, the reduction of salaries of fat cats and other strap-hangers, abolition of inflationary taxes such as the GST, solid industry infrastructure that provides many real jobs for the long term instead of propping up holes in the ground, and a foreseeable career and life plan of some sort for the majority.

That should also see a reduction in the level of crime and other social ills... many of which are the direct result of hopelessness.

Then we might begin to see a decent country for all our years of work instead of this robber's paradise we live in now.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Setanta
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #27 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 8:59pm
 
crocodile wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:30pm:
King FriYAY II wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:54pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
This sort of thing is going on all over the place.

This is the result of a conservative government. wage levels are being deliberately pushed down and is a secretive government supported push on wage levels. It is related to the failure of workchoices - working within the fair work system to achieve the same type of results.

This is not related to the economy or business requirements it is just conservative dogma in action. This lines up with the attack on penalty rates etc.


Wages need to come down. They have been going up in most cases because it is either pay up or put up with union pressure.

You'd need 1000 cans of CRC to clean the rust of you, fair dinkum.




More horseshit. Real wages growth has been pretty awful for most of the last decade. Declining with productivity. Funny about that.


But the declining productivity of whom? Not the workers. Funny how the real underachievers never take a hit.

...
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crocodile
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #28 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 9:30pm
 
Setanta wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 8:59pm:
crocodile wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:30pm:
King FriYAY II wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:54pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
This sort of thing is going on all over the place.

This is the result of a conservative government. wage levels are being deliberately pushed down and is a secretive government supported push on wage levels. It is related to the failure of workchoices - working within the fair work system to achieve the same type of results.

This is not related to the economy or business requirements it is just conservative dogma in action. This lines up with the attack on penalty rates etc.


Wages need to come down. They have been going up in most cases because it is either pay up or put up with union pressure.

You'd need 1000 cans of CRC to clean the rust of you, fair dinkum.




More horseshit. Real wages growth has been pretty awful for most of the last decade. Declining with productivity. Funny about that.


But the declining productivity of whom? Not the workers. Funny how the real underachievers never take a hit.

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2013/03/24/1226604/547823-130325-b-uren.jpg


There are no "whoms" in productivity stats. Growing labour productivity is not a reflection on workers working harder. It has more to do with the uptake of technology. In this regard, both workers and business are adding to the equation.

Add capital and labour together and you end up with multifactor. The decline is obviously in the capital component. The downward slope is what causes wages growth to stall and then fall with respect to inflation. That is what is happening now.

In short, the ratio of capital to labour has been in decline for a long time. Poor government policy from both sides hasn't helped. Too much capital tied up in unproductive asset classes.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Setanta
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Re: Work Choices v2.0 may not be necessary
Reply #29 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 9:43pm
 
crocodile wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 9:30pm:
Setanta wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 8:59pm:
crocodile wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:30pm:
King FriYAY II wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:54pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
This sort of thing is going on all over the place.

This is the result of a conservative government. wage levels are being deliberately pushed down and is a secretive government supported push on wage levels. It is related to the failure of workchoices - working within the fair work system to achieve the same type of results.

This is not related to the economy or business requirements it is just conservative dogma in action. This lines up with the attack on penalty rates etc.


Wages need to come down. They have been going up in most cases because it is either pay up or put up with union pressure.

You'd need 1000 cans of CRC to clean the rust of you, fair dinkum.




More horseshit. Real wages growth has been pretty awful for most of the last decade. Declining with productivity. Funny about that.


But the declining productivity of whom? Not the workers. Funny how the real underachievers never take a hit.

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2013/03/24/1226604/547823-130325-b-uren.jpg


There are no "whoms" in productivity stats. Growing labour productivity is not a reflection on workers working harder. It has more to do with the uptake of technology. In this regard, both workers and business are adding to the equation.

Add capital and labour together and you end up with multifactor. The decline is obviously in the capital component. The downward slope is what causes wages growth to stall and then fall with respect to inflation. That is what is happening now.

In short, the ratio of capital to labour has been in decline for a long time. Poor government policy from both sides hasn't helped. Too much capital tied up in unproductive asset classes.



We told that wages should only rise with productivity. Labour productivity is rising, something else is falling behind and it's not labour. The labour has no control over anything more than his job, someone is falling down on the job and it's not those asked told to bear the brunt.

You say it has more to do with the uptake of tech, wouldn't that be classed as capital?
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