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Question: Should Gina Reinhart pay more tax?

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Total votes: 14
« Created by: Bobby. on: Sep 15th, 2014 at 9:45am »

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Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society (Read 17657 times)
ImSpartacus2
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Re: The Rich Owe Us And Should Pay Their Taxes
Reply #75 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:45pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 7:57pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 7:15pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 4:57pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 10:14am:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 9:19am:
that is drivel.  do you care to explain how any earner avoids paying tax?


What follows is an article from the SMH in May 2014 And its just the tip of the iceburg.  Google Australia opened new offices in Darling Harbour in mid 2009 and derives revenue of 2 billion but its total tax expense was $466,802. Similar story with Apple. And none of this is to mention the corporate welfare they recieve and Taxpayer $$$ from dirty deals.  Remember $880Million payed out to Abbotts mate Murdoch straight after Abbott won the election.  OH yes it was all above board I'm sure. 

"Budget pain? Not for millionaires who pay no tax

Only some parts of this article are reproduced here to allow me space to respond to LongLiar. Check earlier version for the complete article

“Pain all round”....

The latest tax statistics show 75 ultra-high-earning Australians paid no tax at all in 2011-12. Zero. Zip.

Each earned more than $1 million from investments or wages. Between them they made $195 million, an average of $2.6 million each.

The fortunate 75 paid no income tax, no Medicare levy and no Medicare surcharge, even though 60 of them had private health insurance.

The reason? They managed to cut their combined taxable incomes to $82. That’s right, $1.10 each.

Cutting taxable income that far doesn’t come cheap.

Forty-five of the uber millionaires claimed a total of $64.4 million for the “cost of managing their tax affairs”. That’s a staggering $1.4 million each. (As a point of comparison an entry-level H&R Block consultation costs $49.)

At face value the figures suggest these super-high earners were prepared to spend an unlikely half of their incomes on tax advice. A more likely explanation is that they received far greater incomes than they reported and spent only a portion on tax advice.

....
n work-related deductions, for things such as car expenses and clothing. Ten claimed a total of $5 million for donations and gifts, a category that includes political as well as charitable donations.

And they ran loss-making businesses.



It isn’t only millionaires. Tax Office figures show there are 1095 Australians earning in excess of $150,000 who pay no tax. Half of them sought tax advice and shelled out an impressive total of $98 million, which works out to $223,000 each. Their biggest lurk is negative gearing. Most lose large sums on properties they rent out in order to destroy their taxable incomes, hoping to make it up later when they sell the properties for a lightly taxed profit."


there are 15million tax payers in Australia.  do you think that whinging about 75 of them somehow means anything?  and in NONE of these cases was the tax minimisation illegal.  how about concentrating on the vast, vast majority of people who pay all their tax and at huge rates compared to average-or-below earners.

Oh dear. Do you ever set out to have a clean honest debate.  Look at your post I responded to; Quote:"do you care to explain how any earner avoids paying tax?" Now if you were being honest i think you would find from what I posted the mechanisms by which some people avoid paying tax. Your question answered.  Now as to how many wealthy people are out there who go from paying no tax, to hardly any tax, to some but insufficient amounts of tax, to less tax proportionately to the % of tax that the average PAYE tax payer pays, I shudder to think of the numbers. 

Why did I only refer to legal non tax payers. Because i was being honest. Its the tax laws that I have a problem with.  There will always be those who will break the law and provided the law does not deliberately have loopholes (and I believe many do have deliberate loopholes) to allow them to escape paying their fair share, I'm not for the moment criticising the govt for that. Its where the laws dont tax them fairly in the first place that I have an issue with and I reproduced an article that shows just the tip of the iceburg on how that happens. And of course there are many, many more corporate examples such a google which I refer to.    


despite your conspiracy-based beliefs very few avoid paying legal tax or even reasonable tax.  just because YOU think negative gearing is wrong doesn't make it so.  Just because you find some tax minimisation scheme wrong doesn't make it so.  at the end of the day these people you despise pay 20-1000 times the tax YOU pay and receive none of the welfare.  your complaints are envy-based and nothing more. 
Problem is that the net effect is to transfer more of the tax burden on the PAYE tax payer. Like I say you do like to make it up as you go along   


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Setanta
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Re: The Rich Owe Us And Should Pay Their Taxes
Reply #76 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:45pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:43pm:
Setanta wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:40pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:26pm:
IM a conservative.  do you know what that means???  come back when you do.  that might be your starting position.

the 'dwindling to nothing' argument is pointless as it literally applies to 70 people in the entire country.  if you make a generalist statement then it must by definition  apply GENERALLY and not to a 0.000001% subset.


There is great variation under the conservative banner, would you agree?

If I make a general statement about a group, it's about that group, not everyone on the planet. I'm sure I've heard you talk about "subsets" of our population.





sounds like anice way to avoid debating my position.  come back when you have an actual comment.


No, I'm asking you if it's fair that other people must pay more tax because others are using loopholes to pay none. Should these loopholes be looked at?

edit: The number of them means nothing, it's based on a principal that I thought conservatives believed in, pay your way. If it's only a small percent of people it doesn't matter. Why not apply that thinking to welfare "cheats"?
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ImSpartacus2
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Re: The Rich Owe Us And Should Pay Their Taxes
Reply #77 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:57pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 7:58pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 7:15pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 4:57pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 10:14am:
[quote author=longweekend58 link=1410507855/39#39 date=1410563964]

that is drivel.  do you care to explain how any earner avoids paying tax?


What follows is an article from the SMH in May 2014 And its just the tip of the iceburg.  Google Australia opened new offices in Darling Harbour in mid 2009 and derives revenue of 2 billion but its total tax expense was $466,802. Similar story with Apple. And none of this is to mention the corporate welfare they recieve and Taxpayer $$$ from dirty deals.  Remember $880Million payed out to Abbotts mate Murdoch straight after Abbott won the election.  OH yes it was all above board I'm sure. 

"Budget pain? Not for millionaires who pay no tax

Only some parts of this article are reproduced here to allow me space to respond to LongLiar. Check earlier version for the complete article

“Pain all round”....

The latest tax statistics show 75 ultra-high-earning Australians paid no tax at all in 2011-12. Zero. Zip.

Each earned more than $1 million from investments or wages. Between them they made $195 million, an average of $2.6 million each.

The fortunate 75 paid no income tax, no Medicare levy and no Medicare surcharge, even though 60 of them had private health insurance.

The reason? They managed to cut their combined taxable incomes to $82. That’s right, $1.10 each.

Cutting taxable income that far doesn’t come cheap.

Forty-five of the uber millionaires claimed a total of $64.4 million for the “cost of managing their tax affairs”. That’s a staggering $1.4 million each. (As a point of comparison an entry-level H&R Block consultation costs $49.)

At face value the figures suggest these super-high earners were prepared to spend an unlikely half of their incomes on tax advice. A more likely explanation is that they received far greater incomes than they reported and spent only a portion on tax advice.

....
n work-related deductions, for things such as car expenses and clothing. Ten claimed a total of $5 million for donations and gifts, a category that includes political as well as charitable donations.

And they ran loss-making businesses.

The 30 who were in business reported total business income of $121 million offset by expenses of $122 million. Those who ran farms carried over $61.5 million in earlier tax losses and lost an extra $3 million in 2011-12.

there are 15million tax payers in Australia.  do you think that whinging about 75 of them somehow means anything?  and in NONE of these cases was the tax minimisation illegal.  how about concentrating on the vast, vast majority of people who pay all their tax and at huge rates compared to average-or-below earners.

Oh dear. Do you ever set out to have a clean honest debate.  Look at your post I responded to; Quote:"do you care to explain how any earner avoids paying tax?" Now if you were being honest i think you would find from what I posted the mechanisms by which some people avoid paying tax. Your question answered.  Now as to how many wealthy people are out there who go from paying no tax, to hardly any tax, to some but insufficient amounts of tax, to less tax proportionately to the % of tax that the average PAYE tax payer pays, I shudder to think of the numbers. 

Why did I only refer to legal non tax payers. Because i was being honest. Its the tax laws that I have a problem with.  There will always be those who will break the law and provided the law does not deliberately have loopholes (and I believe many do have deliberate loopholes) to allow them to escape paying their fair share, I'm not for the moment criticising the govt for that. Its where the laws dont tax them fairly in the first place that I have an issue with and I reproduced an article that shows just the tip of the iceburg on how that happens. And of course there are many, many more corporate examples such a google which I refer to.    



the google issue is a one MOST countries face and it not even remotely relevant to this discussion.
The Google example is not just one company. The problem is replicated over and over by many many companies internationally and domestically all over the world. I mean, think of the crisis we are in. Not only are they not paying their share, they are not paying anything. No more free lunches. 
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Bobby.
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Re: Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society
Reply #78 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:57pm
 
Longy believes that instead of making the Banks & the mining companies pay more we
should punish the most disadvantaged people in Australia:

the unemployed , people with disabilities.

That's Liberal party thinking - it's not surprising as he's a paid up member of the Liberal party.
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ImSpartacus2
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Re: Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society
Reply #79 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 9:42pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:38pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:35pm:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 7:45pm:
Ah Comrade - squeeze the "rich" for all they have right?
No just what they owe in return for the benefits they receive. Remember in the end this is for your benefit because you stand to lose much much more financially if everything goes to sh!t.   


what 'benefits'???  a person who earns a high income is not being 'benefitted' at all.  they usually have studied long and hard, taken risks and worked harder and longer than most.  it isn't a benefit at all.  it is a reward.  same for business owners who take risks, work long hours and put all the effort into making a winning business.  again, it isn't a benefit, it is a reward.  you confuse the two words.


And back we go to the age of entitlement. We're more entitled, we deserve more. Everybody else's contribution is nothing (dont even pay them penalty rates because putting them and their families out on the weekends means nothing since they don't really work hard anyways) and my contribution, well I work really hard.  Yeah, dont we all mate. If you want a good CEO you will have to pay for him.  I know, lets hire Alan Joyce and Solomon Trujillo and all the other countless no hopers and corrupt liberal MPs who worked really hard to get where they are.  And give them bonuses every year, for what??  Of course you want to demean the efforts of everyone else because it makes you seem more entitled and more valuable. Well its not true and where there are banks and mining companies who make super profits out of the community (i) they must first be made to pay tax and (ii) they must also be made to pay extra because its thanks to the social arrangements that they are phenomenally rich.  Its not a big ask
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Re: Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society
Reply #80 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 9:51pm
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 9:42pm:
And back we go to the age of entitlement. We're more entitled, we deserve more. Everybody else's contribution is nothing (dont even pay them penalty rates because putting them and their families out on the weekends means nothing since they don't really work hard anyways) and my contribution, well I work really hard.  Yeah, dont we all mate. If you want a good CEO you will have to pay for him.  I know, lets hire Alan Joyce and Solomon Trujillo and all the other countless no hopers and corrupt liberal MPs who worked really hard to get where they are.  And give them bonuses every year, for what??  Of course you want to demean the efforts of everyone else because it makes you seem more entitled and more valuable. Well its not true and where there are banks and mining companies who make super profits out of the community (i) they must first be made to pay tax and (ii) they must also be made to pay extra because its thanks to the social arrangements that they are phenomenally rich.  Its not a big ask


...
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Re: The Rich Owe Us And Should Pay Their Taxes
Reply #81 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 10:01pm
 
George_Orhell wrote on Sep 12th, 2014 at 7:37pm:
As usual leftard hate for anybody who is successful through hard work, either in their own business, at their career, in their professional life, or even in their personal life.

I smacking detest that mentality!


The truth is something else - you don't become rich simply because you work hard.

In fact there are many people who much, much harder than richest people and and are not rich. It's to do with opportunity from circumstance.

So higher taxation on the more wealthy is a recognition that wealth is partly good fortune. Higher tax isn't hate, it's reasonable and fair.

Taxation should create a similar burden on all taxpayers, this is why the richer are taxed at higher rates.
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ImSpartacus2
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Re: Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society
Reply #82 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 10:05pm
 
Setanta wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 9:51pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 9:42pm:
And back we go to the age of entitlement. We're more entitled, we deserve more. Everybody else's contribution is nothing (dont even pay them penalty rates because putting them and their families out on the weekends means nothing since they don't really work hard anyways) and my contribution, well I work really hard.  Yeah, dont we all mate. If you want a good CEO you will have to pay for him.  I know, lets hire Alan Joyce and Solomon Trujillo and all the other countless no hopers and corrupt liberal MPs who worked really hard to get where they are.  And give them bonuses every year, for what??  Of course you want to demean the efforts of everyone else because it makes you seem more entitled and more valuable. Well its not true and where there are banks and mining companies who make super profits out of the community (i) they must first be made to pay tax and (ii) they must also be made to pay extra because its thanks to the social arrangements that they are phenomenally rich.  Its not a big ask


http://www.africalol.co.za/admin/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/10382878_10204169399...


...
Couldn't agree more
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Sir lastnail
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Re: The Rich Owe Us And Should Pay Their Taxes
Reply #83 - Sep 14th, 2014 at 8:13am
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 5:02pm:
no I don't.  your entire argument is that because someone has something, then they should have large amounts of it taken from them.  your position is little more than wanting the taxation system to punish people for success and wealth.  do you deny it?  Your type of argument ALWAYS flows from the mouths of the low paid who are already not merely subsidies but have their lives paid for by others.  40% of earners in this county pay ZERO net tax.  who do you think pays the rest?  those high earners or wealth y people you hate so much.

you are just a greedy lazy bugger who wants what everyone has but is unprepared to work for it.


so tell me something. Where does the federal reserve get its money from that it lends out and charges interest on ?

you don't actually believe they work for it do you ?
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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.
 
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longweekend58
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Re: Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society
Reply #84 - Sep 14th, 2014 at 8:32am
 
Bobby. wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:44pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:40pm:
Bobby. wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:37pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 5:48pm:
Bobby. wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 5:06pm:
Longweekend,
you forget that the rich get their wealth by exploiting the poor.

Banks rip off customers with high interest rates & fees -
& pay themselves high salaries at our expense.
Mining companies rape the land & the profits mostly go overseas.

You're such a fool that you can't see the obvious.

forgiven

namaste


only a true fool believes that - which is why you do.



What I have written is 100% true yet you deny it.


I do deny it.  and that is not in small part because you haven't even attempted to prove your point.  and a 'proof' does not constitute making a statement about an individual case but rather proving that ALL rich people are so because they exploited others.  I look forward to

a) your non-reply
b) running off to hangnail for a hug
c) a single pointless incident
d) a proof that is nothing of the kind

I personally tip b c and d



My statement still stands.



so does your stupidity.  clinging to a silly statement without proof just makes you look stupid.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Bobby.
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Re: Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society
Reply #85 - Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:11am
 
Sir Bobby,
Quote:
Banks rip off customers with high interest rates & fees -
& pay themselves high salaries at our expense.
Mining companies rape the land & the profits mostly go overseas.



The Chinese pay 0.25% interest on a mortgage - we pay 6.5%.

Most mining shares are held by overseas investors.

These are just facts.

Longweekend is in a state of denial.

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Re: Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society
Reply #86 - Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:33am
 
Bobby. wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:11am:
Sir Bobby,
Quote:
Banks rip off customers with high interest rates & fees -
& pay themselves high salaries at our expense.
Mining companies rape the land & the profits mostly go overseas.



The Chinese pay 0.25% interest on a mortgage - we pay 6.5%.

Most mining shares are held by overseas investors.

These are just facts.

Longweekend is in a state of denial.




And you would be more than happy to provide the evidence to validate these 'facts'?

Remember your biased opinion is not a 'fact'.


Ohterwise you may leave yourself open to a highly warranted b1tch slapping  Grin Grin



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Bobby.
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Re: Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society
Reply #87 - Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:42am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:33am:
Bobby. wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:11am:
Sir Bobby,
Quote:
Banks rip off customers with high interest rates & fees -
& pay themselves high salaries at our expense.
Mining companies rape the land & the profits mostly go overseas.



The Chinese pay 0.25% interest on a mortgage - we pay 6.5%.

Most mining shares are held by overseas investors.

These are just facts.

Longweekend is in a state of denial.




And you would be more than happy to provide the evidence to validate these 'facts'?

Remember your biased opinion is not a 'fact'.


Ohterwise you may leave yourself open to a highly warranted b1tch slapping  Grin Grin




BigOl is another denier of reality.

forgiven

namaste
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BigOl64
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Re: Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society
Reply #88 - Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:48am
 
Bobby. wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:42am:
BigOl64 wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:33am:
Bobby. wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:11am:
Sir Bobby,
Quote:
Banks rip off customers with high interest rates & fees -
& pay themselves high salaries at our expense.
Mining companies rape the land & the profits mostly go overseas.



The Chinese pay 0.25% interest on a mortgage - we pay 6.5%.

Most mining shares are held by overseas investors.

These are just facts.

Longweekend is in a state of denial.




And you would be more than happy to provide the evidence to validate these 'facts'?

Remember your biased opinion is not a 'fact'.


Ohterwise you may leave yourself open to a highly warranted b1tch slapping  Grin Grin




BigOl is another denier of reality.

forgiven

namaste




Post  the supporting evidence and Ill be more than happy to become a non-denier.


It can't be too hard to show where these chinese investors are getting 2.5% loans from aussie banks or where most of the major share holders of aour mining companies are foreigners and not Australian super funds.

I want to beleive you, but until you provide the evidence it is impossible to do so.



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ImSpartacus2
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Re: Time The Rich Paid Their Huge Debt To Society
Reply #89 - Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:55am
 
BigOl64 wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:48am:
Bobby. wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:42am:
BigOl64 wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:33am:
Bobby. wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 9:11am:
Sir Bobby,
Quote:
Banks rip off customers with high interest rates & fees -
& pay themselves high salaries at our expense.
Mining companies rape the land & the profits mostly go overseas.

The Chinese pay 0.25% interest on a mortgage - we pay 6.5%.
Most mining shares are held by overseas investors.
These are just facts.
Longweekend is in a state of denial.


And you would be more than happy to provide the evidence to validate these 'facts'?

Remember your biased opinion is not a 'fact'.

Ohterwise you may leave yourself open to a highly warranted b1tch slapping  Grin Grin



BigOl is another denier of reality.

forgiven

namaste


Post  the supporting evidence and Ill be more than happy to become a non-denier.

It can't be too hard to show where these chinese investors are getting 2.5% loans from aussie banks or where most of the major share holders of aour mining companies are foreigners and not Australian super funds.

I want to beleive you, but until you provide the evidence it is impossible to do so.


I can provide you with the following regarding Bobby's claims about the banks. No doubt you will find some excuse for why its all BS too;

THE SHAREHOLDER STEPHEN MAYNE (who I think you will know of)

Ever since federal and state governments privatised various public sector banks in the 1990s, Australians have increasingly suffered the world's most expensive banking system.

Skyrocketing transaction fees, the compulsory superannuation gravy train and a near quadrupling of residential mortgages to almost $1 trillion have helped create a profit bonanza for Australian banks like nowhere else in the world.

The big four have gone from a combined market capitalisation of below $30 billion in 1992 to almost $300 billion today, even after the global financial crisis.
Anyone running a government-licensed business can clearly afford to pay a bit more tax when you consider these latest annual pre-tax profits: Commonwealth Bank: $8.94 billion; Westpac: $8 billion; ANZ: $6.6 billion; NAB: $6.5 billion.

With combined pre-tax earnings of $30.1 billion, it is no surprise that our big four banks are so highly valued by the sharemarket.

Most modern economies have a couple of banks in their top 10 companies, although the US has none in its top five.

In Australia, banks represent four of the top five behind BHP Billiton, which is now the world's third most valuable company.

But BHP is making profits from genuinely global operations driven by exports. The bigfour banks just gouge long-suffering Australian consumers and businesses. They might dominate the New Zealand banking market but that is the extent of their global success.
Banking is a highly regulated utility business. If the water, gas, electricity or telco industries were pocketing $30 billion annually, consumers would be up in arms.

There are two obvious solutions to this situation. First, competition and regulatory intervention could drive down prices and profit margins for bank consumers. That hasn't worked too well in the past, so why not embrace the second option: a banking super profits tax?

If a Conservative British prime minister can happily embrace a bank tax to help fix his budget deficit, then why not the same in Australia?

Who would need a flood levy if bank shareholders were asked to pay another $2 billion to $3 billion a year through a super profits tax?

The British government is expecting to raise an extra £2.6 billion a year from a
permanent levy on bank assets that was confirmed only last month.

Big bank bosses would no doubt complain, but when you are earning $8 million a year, you can afford to give a bit back.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/should-banks-pay-a-super-profits-tax-20110305-1bih1.html#ixzz3DF772500

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