Australian Politics Forum - Muslims Are What Muslims Believe

Soren

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #30 - Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:24pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 6:45pm:

Taipan wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 7:34am:

•To prove rape, a woman must have four male witnesses.

No, that is not right. This is conflating adultery with rape. To prove adultery, a woman must have four witnesses. Rape can be proved through other means of evidence.

You are a dangerous fool, Brain, or you are a deliberate distorter.

Dubai sentences Norwegian woman who reported rape

A Norwegian woman has spoken out about the 16-month prison sentence she received in Dubai after reporting a rape incident to police.

Interior designer Marte Deborah Dalelv was on a business trip in Dubai when she says she was raped.

The 24-year-old reported the March attack to the police but found herself charged with having extramarital sex, drinking alcohol, and perjury.

Convicted earlier this week, she says she is appealing against the verdict.

The appeal hearing is scheduled for early September.

Describing the sentence as "very harsh", she told the AFP news agency: "I am very nervous and tense. But I hope for the best and I take one day at a time. I just have to get through this."

The case has angered rights groups and the authorities in Norway.

'Wanted'
Ms Dalelv says she had been on a night out with colleagues on 6 March when the rape took place.

She reported it to the police, who proceeded to confiscate her passport and seize her money. She was charged four days later on three counts, including having sex outside marriage.

Her alleged attacker, she said, received a 13-month sentence for extra-marital sex and alcohol consumption.

The Norwegian government had secured Ms Dalelv's conditional release so, since being charged, she has been living under the protection of the Norwegian Seamans' Centre in Dubai.

But she told Norway's NRK News that following her sentencing on Tuesday she was now officially wanted by the Dubai authorities.

"I should have been imprisoned since Tuesday," she said. "But I have been told they are not searching for me."

The sentence has been condemned by Norway's Foreign Minister Espen Barth Eide who is quoted as saying that it "flies in the face of our notion of justice" and was "highly problematic from a human rights perspective".

The Norwegian authorities are reportedly trying to contact the authorities in Dubai about the situation.

The London-based Emirates Centre for Human Rights called on the United Arab Emirates (UAE), to which Dubai belongs, to quash Ms Dalelv's conviction.

It said the UAE's claims that it is attempting to end discrimination against women was undermined by

a legal system that "prohibits the achievement of justice for cases of sexual violence against women".

According to the Emirates Centre for Human Rights, UAE law states a rape conviction can only be secured after a confession or as the result of testimony from four adult male witnesses to the crime.

Tensions
Dubai has undergone a rapid transformation in recent years, emerging as a five-star trade and tourism destination with its tax-free salaries and year-round sunshine.

It is now one of the world's most cosmopolitan cities with foreign workers and visitors greatly outnumbering the local population.

But it remains a deeply conservative region, and its strict laws have caught out foreigners in the past. Public displays of affection and drunkenness are frowned upon.

A British couple, Ayman Najafi and Charlotte Adams, were jailed for a month in 2010 after they shared what Mr Najafi described as an "innocuous peck on the cheek" in a restaurant. A witness said they had kissed on the mouth.

Another British couple, Vince Acors and Michelle Palmer, were jailed for three months in 2008 for having sex on a public beach - an allegation they denied.

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Soren

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #31 - Sep 15^th, 2014 at 4:18pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 11:35am:

Soren wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 2:28pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:20am:

Whereas you only seek out the bad stuff because you have a preconceived notion in your noggin to satisfy your Islamophobic bigotry. None of the things you just quoted negate the points the Wikipedia article said. Sometimes it better to go to a general article which provides a broad overview of a topic than it is to seek out specific examples. It allows you to understand the concept, rather than just focus on examples. Having an open mind also helps. However, we know in your case that isn't possible.

Here you are:

There is just one historically relevant meaning of jihad despite the surfeit of contemporary apologetics. Dr. Tina Magaard—a Sorbonne-trained linguist specializing in textual analysis—published detailed research findings in 2005 (summarized in 2007) comparing the foundational texts of ten major religions. Magaard concluded from her hard data-driven analyses:

The texts in Islam distinguish themselves from the texts of other religions by encouraging violence and aggression against people with other religious beliefs to a larger degree [emphasis added]. There are also straightforward calls for terror. This has long been a taboo in the research into Islam, but it is a fact that we need to deal with.

For example, in her 2007 essay “Fjendebilleder og voldsforestillinger i islamiske grundtekster” [“Images of enemies and conceptions of violence in Islamic core scriptures”], Magaard observed,

There are 36 references in the Koran to expressions derived from the root qa-ta-la, which indicates fighting, killing or being killed. The expressions derived from the root ja-ha-da, which the word jihad stems from, are more ambiguous since they mean “to struggle” or “to make an effort” rather than killing. Yet almost all of the references derived from this root are found in stories that leave no room for doubt regarding the violent nature of this struggle. Only a single ja-ha-da reference (29:6) explicitly presents the struggle as an inner, spiritual phenomenon, not as an outwardly (usually military) phenomenon. But this sole reference does not carry much weight against the more than 50 references to actual armed struggle in the Koran, and even more in the Hadith.

Consistent with Magaard’s textual analysis, the independent study of Australian linguist and renowned Arabic to English translator, Paul Stenhouse, claimed the root of the word jihad appears forty times in the Koran. With four exceptions, Stenhouse maintained, all the other thirty-six usages in the Koran, and in subsequent Islamic understanding to both Muslim luminaries—the greatest jurists and scholars of classical Islam—and to ordinary people, meant and means, as described by the seminal Arabic lexicographer, E. W. Lane: “He fought, warred or waged war against unbelievers and the like.” A concordant modern Muslim definition, relevant to both contemporary jihadism and its shock troop “mujahideen” [holy warriors; see just below], was provided at the “Fourth International Conference of the Academy of Islamic Research,” at Al Azhar University— in 1968, by Muhammad al-Sobki:

[T]he words Al Jihad, Al Mojahadah, or even “striving against enemies” are equivalents and they do not mean especially fighting with the atheists . . . they mean fighting in the general sense.
http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2014/09/11/911-and-jihad-terror-a-legacy-of-ove...

I don't accept the validity of that source. It starts from a pre-concieved position and then attempts to find evidence to prove it. The reality is that like most words, "jihad" has multiple meanings, depending on the context in which it's used. In one context it means "armed struggle" in another it would mean "personal struggle". You however, like most bigots choose only the definition that supports your extreme viewpoint. Your mind is closed to any alternatives. Grin

OK, YOU tell us the meaning of the 36 occurrences of 'jihad' in the Koran - how many refer to armed fighting and how many to inner spiritual struggle.

SHow us.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 41942	Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe Reply #32 - Sep 15^th, 2014 at 5:46pm You may not have heard of this word at your Madrassah, Soren but its called "interpretation". Perhaps you need to recognise that different people have different interpretations to your own? I know, it's a radical concept but well, it might be worth exploring.
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Soren

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #33 - Sep 15^th, 2014 at 8:19pm

The Danish linguist has done precisely that, Brain - interpretation.

36 mentions of jihad in the Koran - 1 reference to spiritual struggle, the other 35 are about actual violence.

Falsifiable research. Like all science, you can challenge it and show how it is wrong. Can you do it? Present your own interpretation that demonstrates her errors.

Go on, Brain. Show us. Don't just be full of shite as always. Here's your opportunity to actually demonstrate the truth of what you are saying.

Do it.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 41942	Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe Reply #34 - Sep 15^th, 2014 at 8:37pm So why is that interpretation right and all the other interpretations which state multiple meanings, depending upon context are wrong, Soren? I'd accept theirs, as they are invariably made by Muslims and Orientalist scholars over a linguist who as you're quoting them, more than likely is Islamophobic herself.
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Soren

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #35 - Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:58am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 8:37pm:

So why is that interpretation right and all the other interpretations which state multiple meanings, depending upon context are wrong, Soren? I'd accept theirs, as they are invariably made by Muslims and Orientalist scholars over a linguist who as you're quoting them, more than likely is Islamophobic herself. Roll Eyes

Show us the other research that convinces you that of the 36 mentions of jihad in the Koran, 35 are not about fighting others.
That's all you have to do, Brain/breath - show us the evidence that is the basis of disputing the linguist's evidence.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #36 - Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:57am

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:58am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 8:37pm:

So why is that interpretation right and all the other interpretations which state multiple meanings, depending upon context are wrong, Soren? I'd accept theirs, as they are invariably made by Muslims and Orientalist scholars over a linguist who as you're quoting them, more than likely is Islamophobic herself. Roll Eyes

Show us the other research that convinces you that of the 36 mentions of jihad in the Koran, 35 are not about fighting others.
That's all you have to do, Brain/breath - show us the evidence that is the basis of disputing the linguist's evidence.

Old boy focuses on evidence.

Yes, habibis, there is always a firsts, isn’t it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #37 - Sep 16^th, 2014 at 11:36am

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:58am:

Show us the other research that convinces you that of the 36 mentions of jihad in the Koran, 35 are not about fighting others.

Soren, little known fact is that the Quran doesn't even use the word 'jihad' in the verses about fighting others/holy war. It uses an entirely different word - 'Qital'. Can you come up with a sensible reason why 'jihad' (literal meaning: strive or struggle) would mean "fighting (violently) against others" - when the actual verses about fighting violently uses an entirely different verb?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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|dev|null

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #38 - Sep 16^th, 2014 at 11:37am

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:58am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 8:37pm:

So why is that interpretation right and all the other interpretations which state multiple meanings, depending upon context are wrong, Soren? I'd accept theirs, as they are invariably made by Muslims and Orientalist scholars over a linguist who as you're quoting them, more than likely is Islamophobic herself. Roll Eyes

Show us the other research that convinces you that of the 36 mentions of jihad in the Koran, 35 are not about fighting others.
That's all you have to do, Brain/breath - show us the evidence that is the basis of disputing the linguist's evidence.

I wasn't aware that the Koran is an Arabic dictionary.

You ever think that the usage of the word might have changed in the last 1400 years in Muslim society?

No, of course not, they are all automatons who are all part of this Borg called "Islam". Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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Soren

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #39 - Sep 16^th, 2014 at 11:54am

Gandy, read it again, this time with the aim of comprehending it.

There are 36 references in the Koran to expressions derived from the root qa-ta-la, which indicates fighting, killing or being killed. The expressions derived from the root ja-ha-da, which the word jihad stems from, are more ambiguous since they mean “to struggle” or “to make an effort” rather than killing. Yet almost all of the references derived from this root are found in stories that leave no room for doubt regarding the violent nature of this struggle. Only a single ja-ha-da reference (29:6) explicitly presents the struggle as an inner, spiritual phenomenon, not as an outwardly (usually military) phenomenon. But this sole reference does not carry much weight against the more than 50 references to actual armed struggle in the Koran, and even more in the Hadith.

Got that?

Brain/Breath - as you were.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #40 - Sep 16^th, 2014 at 12:14pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 11:36am:

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:58am:

Show us the other research that convinces you that of the 36 mentions of jihad in the Koran, 35 are not about fighting others.

Soren, little known fact is that the Quran doesn't even use the word 'jihad' in the verses about fighting others/holy war. It uses an entirely different word - 'Qital'. Can you come up with a sensible reason why 'jihad' (literal meaning: strive or struggle) would mean "fighting (violently) against others" - when the actual verses about fighting violently uses an entirely different verb?

There you go, you see. When the Muselman uses a certain word, he actually means another word - a carefully calculated example of Taqiyya written into their very foundational handbook - which, as the old boy shows, is clearly a training manual for killing each other off.

Talk about cunning. I must say, we're so lucky the old boy can read Danish. The Danes have it all over the Muselman when it comes to Arabic philology.

FD had better watch out. The old boy translating Danes translating Arabic is a step up from interpreting Abu's silence. We all love Danish, eh?

Marvellous stuff.

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|dev|null

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #41 - Sep 16^th, 2014 at 12:41pm

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 11:54am:

Gandy, read it again, this time with the aim of comprehending it.

There are 36 references in the Koran to expressions derived from the root qa-ta-la, which indicates fighting, killing or being killed. The expressions derived from the root ja-ha-da, which the word jihad stems from, are more ambiguous since they mean “to struggle” or “to make an effort” rather than killing. Yet almost all of the references derived from this root are found in stories that leave no room for doubt regarding the violent nature of this struggle. Only a single ja-ha-da reference (29:6) explicitly presents the struggle as an inner, spiritual phenomenon, not as an outwardly (usually military) phenomenon. But this sole reference does not carry much weight against the more than 50 references to actual armed struggle in the Koran, and even more in the Hadith.

Got that?

Brain/Breath - as you were.

You expect us to take serious a passage sourced from a Magazine that declares on it's masthead that, "Inside every Liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out"? You can't be serious. No, there is no problem with bias there, now is there Soren? No wonder you didn't put a link to it. Were you worried we'd realise just how bigoted it was? Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #42 - Sep 16^th, 2014 at 1:53pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 12:41pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 11:54am:

Gandy, read it again, this time with the aim of comprehending it.

There are 36 references in the Koran to expressions derived from the root qa-ta-la, which indicates fighting, killing or being killed. The expressions derived from the root ja-ha-da, which the word jihad stems from, are more ambiguous since they mean “to struggle” or “to make an effort” rather than killing. Yet almost all of the references derived from this root are found in stories that leave no room for doubt regarding the violent nature of this struggle. Only a single ja-ha-da reference (29:6) explicitly presents the struggle as an inner, spiritual phenomenon, not as an outwardly (usually military) phenomenon. But this sole reference does not carry much weight against the more than 50 references to actual armed struggle in the Koran, and even more in the Hadith.

Got that?

Brain/Breath - as you were.

You expect us to take serious a passage sourced from a Magazine that declares on it's masthead that, "Inside every Liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out"? You can't be serious. No, there is no problem with bias there, now is there Soren? No wonder you didn't put a link to it. Were you worried we'd realise just how bigoted it was? Grin

Yes, but the old boy's magazine also comes up with pearls of wisdom like this:

Quote:

It is, technically speaking, true that there may be non-violent aspects to Jihad as well, for instance propaganda. However, this is true of all wars. The primary meaning of Jihad is violent, and has been so consistently for fourteen centuries. The ultimate goal of Islam and of Jihad is the global supremacy of Islam and of Islamic law, or sharia — in other words, world supremacy. It is very hard to get much more aggressive than that. Until that goal has been reached, every non-Muslim man, woman and child on this planet is a potential target for Jihad violence. Sometimes, Jihadists will even target Muslims who are not Islamic enough for their taste.

No need to disprove that the ultimate goal of Islam is personal submission to God. After all, this message is contained in all the other parts of the Quran that don't refer to head-hacking, limb-amputating, rape, slaughter and torture.

They just haven't translated these parts into Danish.

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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe Reply #43 - Sep 17^th, 2014 at 3:15pm Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:58am: Show us the other research that convinces you that of the 36 mentions of jihad in the Koran, 35 are not about fighting others.That's all you have to do, Brain/breath - show us the evidence that is the basis of disputing the linguist's evidence. Come on Brian show us!
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|dev|null

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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #44 - Sep 17^th, 2014 at 3:25pm

Jihad:
Quote:

Current Usage
See also: Opinion of Islamic scholars on Jihad

The term 'jihad' has accrued both violent and non-violent meanings. According to John Esposito, it can simply mean striving to live a moral and virtuous life, spreading and defending Islam as well as fighting injustice and oppression, among other things.[106] The relative importance of these two forms of jihad is a matter of controversy.
Muslim public opinion

A poll by Gallup showed that a "significant majority" of Muslim Indonesians define the term to mean "sacrificing one's life for the sake of Islam/God/a just cause" or "fighting against the opponents of Islam". In Lebanon, Kuwait, Jordan, and Morocco, the majority used the term to mean "duty toward God", a "divine duty", or a "worship of God", with no militaristic connotations.[107] The terminology is also applied to the fight for women's liberation.[108] Other responses referenced, in descending order of prevalence:

"A commitment to hard work" and "achieving one's goals in life"
"Struggling to achieve a noble cause"
"Promoting peace, harmony or cooperation, and assisting others"
"Living the principles of Islam"[109]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Muslim_public_opinion]

Looks like opinion is, as I've pointed out, divided. No one single definition is used. What does that do to the bedrock of your bigotry Adamant? Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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