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Muslims Are What Muslims Believe (Read 7587 times)
Karnal
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #60 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 2:07pm
 
Soren wrote on Sep 17th, 2014 at 10:21pm:
If only the West could bring literature to the 20 minute eggs of the Middle East.


What goes around comes around, old chap. 600 years ago, the Middle East brought literature to the West.

More accurately, the West pillaged Middle Eastern cities like Constantinople during the crusades and brought home the spoils: Plato, Aristotle, Tacitus, Pliny the elder. These written texts became the basis of the "rebirth" of Western civilization. They were preserved in the Muslim world because Islam valued the written text. Islam, after all, is a literary tradition. Up until the invention of the printing press, the West was largely illiterate.

In the Middle Ages, the church taught through oral stories, rituals and images. Islam pretty much banned visual representation. Islam's focus was the written word. Philosophy, poetry, essays: Islam has always personified itself as a literary culture.

How times change, eh? Today, the shoe is clearly on the other foot. If we're to believe some, the purest expression of Islam today is found in fundamentalist groups like the Taliban. Here, Islam is experienced through action and doctrine - and 50% of the population (women and girls) are actively discouraged from reading. The one thing the Western powers pride themselves on for their intervention in Afghanistan is girls' school enrollment and rising female literacy levels.

Always, absolutely, never ever. Things change, and things stay the same. The old switcheroo can be applied, it seems, to the rise and fall of empires, cultures and civilizations.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #61 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 7:21pm
 
The key to Western Europe's acquisition of the wisdom of the ancients was the siege and capture of the city of Toledo from the Moors in 1105 CE.   They also captured the vast libraries the Moors had established there.

The libraries held thousands of:
Quote:
Greek, Roman, and Arabic books on philosophy and mathematics. These books included the classics of Rome and Greece, lost to the west for hundreds of years. The intellectual plunder lead to scholars from all over Europe to come to Toledo. Using Jewish interpreters, the scholars translated the Arabic books, and these works left lasting jealousies on the scholars of Europe. The texts included medicine, astrology, astronomy, pharmacology, psychology, physics, physiology, zoology, biology, botany, mineralogy, optics, chemistry, mathematics, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, music, meteorology, geography, mechanics, hydrostasis, navigation, and history. These transcripts helped to light the fire of the renaissance.

[Source]

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Soren
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #62 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 8:17pm
 
Karnal wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 2:07pm:
Soren wrote on Sep 17th, 2014 at 10:21pm:
If only the West could bring literature to the 20 minute eggs of the Middle East.


What goes around comes around, old chap. 600 years ago, the Middle East brought literature to the West.

That's an enduring furphy.
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Soren
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #63 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 8:48pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 7:21pm:
These books included the classics of Rome and Greece, lost to the west for hundreds of years.

because of the Muslim invasion and subjugation of of the Eastern Roman Empire, cutting the Greek east off from the Latin West.

The translation of the classical Greek heritage into Latin and into Western vernaculars really took off when in 1453 Byzantium fell and the refugees to the West took the books they could rescue with them. This is when Greek literature was beginning to appear - the Arabs had no interest in Greek literature or poetry and had none of it translated by the conquered Jews and Christians who did the vast majority of the translations for them.

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Karnal
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #64 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 8:56pm
 
So you keep saying, old chap. The illiterate barbarian just kept the papers in the safe, so to speak - just waiting for whitey to come and discover it all.

That makes so.much sense - especially when you look at history from the point of view of the old boy.
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Karnal
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #65 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 8:59pm
 
Soren wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 8:17pm:
Karnal wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 2:07pm:
Soren wrote on Sep 17th, 2014 at 10:21pm:
If only the West could bring literature to the 20 minute eggs of the Middle East.


What goes around comes around, old chap. 600 years ago, the Middle East brought literature to the West.

That's an enduring furphy.


Sorry, old dear. No more ahs.
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Soren
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #66 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 9:21pm
 
The Arabs were interested in Greek science and philosophy. They were not interested in literature (poetry, drama). They were not interested in learning Greek. Some did but it was not typical at all.
As a result, most of the translations were made by non-Arab dhimmis or converts.
Commentaries on the Arabic translations were then made by Muslim Arabs.




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Karnal
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #67 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 9:29pm
 
Blah blah blah. You think that if you repeat something long enough, some of it might stick.

Problem is, you’re hardly a reliable source on the matter, no? Who’s going to believe an old boy with an axe to grind?

If you posed sane, calm and rational posts more often, you might occasionally be heard.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, dear. I’d like you to know that I’m always here for you.
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Soren
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #68 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 9:43pm
 
Karnal wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 9:29pm:
Blah blah blah. You think that if you repeat something long enough, some of it might stick.

Problem is, you’re hardly a reliable source on the matter, no? Who’s going to believe an old boy with an axe to grind?

If you posed sane, calm and rational posts more often, you might occasionally be heard.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, dear. I’d like you to know that I’m always here for you.


You are an idiot, PB - and I say this in a caring, nurturing way.


Bernard Lewis in The Muslim Discovery of Europe:

We know of no Muslim scholar or man of letters before the eighteenth century who sought to learn a western language, still less of any attempt to produce grammars, dictionaries, or other language tools. Translations are few and far between. Those that are known are works chosen for practical purposes [philosophy being considered a practical discipline] and the translations are made by converts [who knew western languages before conversion] or non—Muslims.

The translators were without exception non-Muslims or new converts. Most were Christians, a few were Jews, and the remainder were members of the Sabian community.

There was no attempt to translate Greek poetry, drama, or history.




Discuss.
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« Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2014 at 10:12pm by Soren »  
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #69 - Sep 19th, 2014 at 1:10am
 
Soren wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 8:48pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 7:21pm:
These books included the classics of Rome and Greece, lost to the west for hundreds of years.

because of the Muslim invasion and subjugation of of the Eastern Roman Empire, cutting the Greek east off from the Latin West.

The translation of the classical Greek heritage into Latin and into Western vernaculars really took off when in 1453 Byzantium fell and the refugees to the West took the books they could rescue with them. This is when Greek literature was beginning to appear - the Arabs had no interest in Greek literature or poetry and had none of it translated by the conquered Jews and Christians who did the vast majority of the translations for them.



Hang on a second.  So, you're saying that the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans in 1453 was the reason why the supposedly enlightened Christian West ignored Greek and Roman literature and science for nearly 1,000 years?   Are you sure, Soren?   Roll Eyes


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Karnal
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #70 - Sep 19th, 2014 at 10:17am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 19th, 2014 at 1:10am:
Soren wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 8:48pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 7:21pm:
These books included the classics of Rome and Greece, lost to the west for hundreds of years.

because of the Muslim invasion and subjugation of of the Eastern Roman Empire, cutting the Greek east off from the Latin West.

The translation of the classical Greek heritage into Latin and into Western vernaculars really took off when in 1453 Byzantium fell and the refugees to the West took the books they could rescue with them. This is when Greek literature was beginning to appear - the Arabs had no interest in Greek literature or poetry and had none of it translated by the conquered Jews and Christians who did the vast majority of the translations for them.



Hang on a second.  So, you're saying that the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans in 1453 was the reason why the supposedly enlightened Christian West ignored Greek and Roman literature and science for nearly 1,000 years?   Are you sure, Soren?   Roll Eyes




No, he's saying scholars fleeing the Ottomans brought classical texts to the West, and it's true. They did.

Arabic scholars, however, had already translated Greek texts, and applied them to Islamic philosophy:

Quote:
Throughout the eighth and ninth centuries (second and third centuries ah), a new impetus was given to the translation movement thanks to the enlightened patronage of three of the early Abbasid caliphs at Baghdad, al-Mansur, Harun and his son al-Ma'mun, who founded the House of Wisdom in Baghdad to serve as a library and institute of translation. It was during the reign of al-Ma'mun that the translation of medical, scientific and philosophical texts, chiefly from Greek or Syriac, was placed on an official footing. The major translators who flourished during al-Ma'mun's reign include Yahya ibn al-Bitriq, credited with translating into Arabic Plato's Timaeus, Aristotle's On the Soul, On the Heavens and Prior Analytics as well as the Secret of Secrets, an apocryphal political treatise of unknown authorship attributed to Aristotle.

...

Ibn Rushd continued the tradition of commenting on Aristotle's works initiated in Arab Spain by Ibn Bajja (Avempace) and in the East by al-Farabi. Ibn Rushd, however, produced the most extensive commentaries on all the works of Aristotle with the exception of the Politics, for which he substituted the Republic of Plato. These commentaries, which have survived in Arabic, Hebrew or Latin, earned him in the Middle Ages the title of the Commentator, or as Dante put it in Inferno V. 144, 'che'l gran commento feo' (he who wrote the grand commentary). Ibn Rushd actually wrote three types of commentaries, known as the large, middle and short commentaries, on the major Aristotelian treatises, notably the Physics, the Metaphysics, the Posterior Analytics, On the Soul and On the Heavens. In addition, he defended Aristotle against the onslaughts of al-Ghazali, the famous Ash'arite theologian, in a great work of philosophical debate entitled the Tahafut al-tahafut (Incoherence of the Incoherence), a rebuttal of al-Ghazali's Tahafut al-falasifa (Incoherence of the Philosophers).
...

The first genuine system-builder in Islam, however, was al-Farabi. He was the first outstanding logician of Islam, who commented on or paraphrased the six books of Aristotle's Organon, together with the Rhetoric and the Poetics, which formed part of the Organon in the Syriac-Arabic tradition and to which the Isagog of Porphyry, also paraphrased by al-Farabi, was added. He also wrote several original treatises on the analysis of logical terms, which had no parallels until modern times. He defended Aristotelian logic against the Arabic grammarians who regarded logic as a foreign importation, doubly superfluous and pernicious (see Logic in Islamic philosophy). He also laid down the foundations of Arab-Islamic Neoplatonism in a series of writings, the best-known of which is al-Madina al-fadila (Opinions of the Inhabitants of the Virtuous City). This treatise is inspired by the same utopian ideal as Plato's Republic (see Plato §14), but is essentially an exposition of the emanationist world-view of Plotinus to which a political dimension has been added. In that latter respect, it had hardly any impact on political developments in Islam, but it did inspire subsequent writers on political philosophy such as Ibn Bajja. Another great champion of the emanationist world-view was Abu 'Ali al-Husayn Ibn Sina (Avicenna), who was a confessed spiritual disciple of al-Farabi.
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/rep/H011

And blah blah blah. We could go on. We will.

Carry on camping, that's the old boy's motto.
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« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2014 at 10:45am by Karnal »  
 
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Soren
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #71 - Sep 19th, 2014 at 12:52pm
 
Karnal wrote on Sep 19th, 2014 at 10:17am:
Arabic scholars, however, had already translated Greek texts, and applied them to Islamic philosophy:

Quote:
The major translators who flourished during al-Ma'mun's reign include Yahya ibn al-Bitriq, credited with translating into Arabic Plato's Timaeus, Aristotle's On the Soul, On the Heavens and Prior Analytics as well as the Secret of Secrets, an apocryphal political treatise of unknown authorship attributed to Aristotle.

'ello, 'ello,'ello, what's this then - Yahya ibn al-Bitriq (aka Johannes Serapion the Elder) nothing is known of the events of his life, except that he was a Christian physician, and lived in the second half of the 9th century.

Quote:
Quote:
Ibn Rushd continued the tradition of commenting on Aristotle's works initiated in Arab Spain by Ibn Bajja (Avempace) and in the East by al-Farabi. Ibn Rushd, however, produced the most extensive commentaries on all the works of Aristotle with the exception of the Politics, for which he substituted the Republic of Plato. These commentaries, which have survived in Arabic, Hebrew or Latin, earned him in the Middle Ages the title of the Commentator.
...

The first genuine system-builder in Islam, however, was al-Farabi. He was the first outstanding logician of Islam, who commented on or paraphrased the six books of Aristotle's Organon, together with the Rhetoric and the Poetics, which formed part of the Organon in the Syriac-Arabic tradition and to which the Isagog of Porphyry, also paraphrased by al-Farabi, was added..
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/rep/H011

And blah blah blah. We could go on. We will.

Carry on camping, that's the old boy's motto.


So no translation by Muslims Arabs, only by non-Muslims. Arabs did the commenting on the translated texts and financed the translations. They did not themselves translate because they did not know Greek and Syriac well enough.

We know of no Muslim scholar or man of letters before the eighteenth century who sought to learn a western language, still less of any attempt to produce grammars, dictionaries, or other language tools. Translations are few and far between. Those that are known are works chosen for practical purposes [philosophy being considered a practical discipline] and the translations are made by converts [who knew western languages before conversion] or non—Muslims.

The translators were
without exception
non-Muslims or new converts
. Most were Christians, a few were Jews, and the remainder were members of the Sabian community.


There was no attempt to translate Greek poetry, drama, or history.

Discuss. Or should I say comment?
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« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2014 at 1:16pm by Soren »  
 
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freediver
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #72 - Sep 19th, 2014 at 2:00pm
 
Quote:
As I understand it, it would make sense that the notion of jihad would have its origins in the idea of violent conflict. Muhammed’s audience lived through war.


Inflicted on them by outside forces, was it?

Quote:
The cities they lived in and traded with were always swapping hands.


Medina was not in anyone's hands until Muhammed turned up and kicked the Jews out.

Quote:
Back then, the metaphor of war to describe the spiritual/ethical struggle would have made sense.


So when Muhammed said to wage war on and kill the unbelievers, it was a metaphor?

Quote:
Likewise, Muhammed did not write for backpacker jihadis with rocket launchers and AKs. Muhammed did not write at all. He spoke to people who came to listen.


Ah, the rich literary tradition of Islam you were just telling us about. That must be why the Koran is such an enjoyable read.
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Karnal
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #73 - Sep 19th, 2014 at 2:27pm
 
Soren wrote on Sep 19th, 2014 at 12:52pm:
[So no translation by Muslims Arabs, only by non-Muslims. Arabs did the commenting on the translated texts and financed the translations. They did not themselves translate because they did not know Greek and Syriac well enough.


Oh, I know, old chap. You've always been a big fan of Brain's pedantry. Still, it helps to read the words, eh?

Quote:
However, the shining star of al-Ma'mun's reign was the Nestorian Hunayn ibn Ishaq (d. ah 264/ad 873), who hailed from al-Hirah in Iraq and, jointly with his son Ishaq (d. ah 299/ad 911), his nephew Hubaysh and other associates, placed the translation of Greek medieval and philosophical texts on a sound scientific footing. The chief interests of Hunayn himself were medical, and we owe to him the translation of the complete medical corpus of Hippocrates and Galen, but Hunayn and his associates were also responsible for translating Galen's treatises on logic, his Ethics (the Greek original of which is lost) and his epitomes of Plato's Sophist, Parmenides, Cratylus, Euthydemus, Timaeus, Statesman, Republic and Laws. (Only the epitomes of the Timaeus and the Laws have survived in Arabic.)

The interest of Hunayn and his school in Galen, the outstanding Alexandrian physician and Platonist, is noteworthy and this philosopher-physician is a major figure in the history of the transmission of Greek learning into Arabic. Not only his sixteen books on medicine but a series of his logical and ethical writings were translated and played an important role in the development of Arabic thought. Apart from the epitomes of Plato's Dialogues already mentioned, his Pinax (list of his own writings), That the Virtuous can Profit from Knowing Their Enemies, That One Should Know His Own Faults and especially his Ethics have influenced moral philosophers from Abu Bakr al-Razi to Ibn Miskawayh and beyond.

Of the works of Aristotle, Hunayn's son Ishaq is responsible for translating the Categories, De interpretatione, On Generation and Corruption, the Physics, On the Soul, the Nicomachean Ethics and the spurious De Plantis, written by the Peripatetic philosopher Nicolaus of Damascus (first century bc). By far the most important Aristotelian treatise to be translated into Arabic during this period is the Metaphysics, known in the Arabic sources as the Book of Letters or the Theologica (al-Ilahiyat). According to reliable authorities, a little-known translator named Astat (Eustathius) translated the twelve books (excluding M and N) for al-Kindi, as did Yahya ibn 'Adi a century later. However, Ishaq, Abu Bishr Matta and others are also credited with translating some parts of the Metaphysics.

Equally important is the translation by Ibn Na'imah al-Himsi (d. ah 220/ad 835) of a treatise allegedly written by Aristotle and referred to in the Arabic sources at Uthulugia or Theologia Aristotelis. This treatise, which consists of a paraphrase of Plotinus' Enneads IV-VI, made by an anonymous Greek author (who could very well be Porphyry of Tyre), together with Proclus' Elements of Theology (known as the Pure Good or Liber de causis), thoroughly conditioned the whole development of Arab-Islamic Neoplatonism (see Neoplatonism in Islamic philosophy). Al-Kindi is said to have commented on the Theologia Aristotelis as did Ibn Sina and others, and al-Farabi refers to it as an undoubted work of Aristotle. A series of other pseudo-Aristotelian works also found their way into Arabic, including the already mentioned Secret of Secrets, De Plantis, Economica and the Book of Minerals.

Among other translators of Greek philosophical texts, we should mention Qusta ibn Luqa (d. ah 300/ad 912), Abu 'Uthman al-Dimashqi (d. ah 298/ad 910), Ibn Zur'ah (d. ah 398/ad 1008) and Ibn al-Khammar (d. ah 408/ad 1017), as well as the already-mentioned Abu Bishr Matta (d. ah 328/ad 940) and his disciple Yahya Ibn 'Adi. None of those translators made any significant or original contribution to Arabic philosophical literature, although they laid the groundwork for subsequent developments and served as the chief purveyors of Greek philosophy and science into the Islamic world. However, there were noteworthy exceptions: Abu Bishr Matta was a skilled logician, and the Jacobite Yahya ibn 'Adi stands out as the best-known writer on Christian theological questions and on ethics in Arabic. The Harranean Thabit ibn Qurra (d. ah 289/ad 901) was an outstanding mathematician and astronomer as well as a translator.


Enduring furphy or notable example of Taqiyya?

Discuss.
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Karnal
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Re: Muslims Are What Muslims Believe
Reply #74 - Sep 19th, 2014 at 2:34pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 19th, 2014 at 2:00pm:
Quote:
As I understand it, it would make sense that the notion of jihad would have its origins in the idea of violent conflict. Muhammed’s audience lived through war.


Inflicted on them by outside forces, was it?


"Outside" forces? Good point, FD. This must be one of those questions that are just questions. 

Muhammed's audience were non-Muslims. Muslims didn't exist back then. Muhammed invented them.

Cunning, no?
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