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More Islamophobic attacks? (Read 38922 times)
Soren
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #540 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:34pm
 
Here's an example of what I think is objective, rational criticsism of Islam:

Islam and Intellectual Terrorism
by IBN WARRAQ

Aldous Huxley once defined an intellectual as someone who had found something in life more important than sex: a witty but inadequate definition, since it would make all impotent men and frigid women intellectuals. A better definition would be a freethinker, not in the narrow sense of someone who does not accept the dogmas of traditional religion, but in the wider sense of someone who has the will to find out, who exhibits rational doubt about prevailing intellectual fashions, and who is unafraid to apply critical thought to any subject. If the intellectual is really committed to the notion of truth and free inquiry, then he or she cannot stop the inquiring mind at the gates of any religion -- let alone Islam. And yet, that is precisely what has happened with Islam, criticism of which in our present intellectual climate is taboo.

The reason why many intellectuals have continued to treat Islam as a taboo subject are many and various, including:

political correctness leading to Islamic correctness
the fear of playing into the hands of racists or reactionaries to the detriment of the West’s Muslim minorities
commercial or economic motives
feelings of post-colonial guilt -- where the entire planet’s problems are attributed to the West’s wicked ways and intentions
plain physical fear
and intellectual terrorism of writers such as Edward Said


Said not only taught an entire generation of Arabs the wonderful art of self-pity (if only those wicked Zionists, imperialists and colonialists would leave us alone, we would be great, we would not have been humiliated, we would not be backward) but intimidated feeble Western academics, and even weaker, invariably leftish, intellectuals into accepting that any criticism of Islam was to be dismissed as orientalism, and hence invalid.

But the first duty of the intellectual is to tell the truth. Truth is not much in fashion in this postmodern age when continental charlatans have infected Anglo-American intellectuals with the thought that objective knowledge is not only undesirable but unobtainable. I believe that to abandon the idea of truth not only leads to political fascism, but stops dead all intellectual inquiry. To give up the notion of truth means forsaking the goal of acquiring knowledge. But man, as Aristotle put it, by nature strives to know. Truth, science, intellectual inquiry and rationality are inextricably bound together. Relativism, and its illegitimate offspring, multiculturalism, are not conducive to the critical examination of Islam.

Said wrote a polemical book, Orientalism (1978), whose pernicious influence is still felt in all departments of Islamic studies, where any critical discussion of Islam is ruled out a priori . For Said, orientalists are involved in an evil conspiracy to denigrate Islam, to maintain its people in a state of permanent subjugation and are a threat to Islam’s future. These orientalists are seeking knowledge of oriental peoples only in order to dominate them; most are in the service of imperialism.

Said’s thesis was swallowed whole by Western intellectuals, since it accords well with the deep anti-Westernism of many of them. This anti-Westernism resurfaces regularly in Said’s prose, as it did in his comments in the Guardian after September 11th. The studied moral evasiveness, callousness and plain nastiness of Said’s article, with its refusal to condemn outright the attacks on America or show any sympathy for the victims or Americans, leave an unpleasant taste in the mouth of anyone whose moral sensibilities have not been blunted by political and Islamic correctness. In the face of all evidence, Said still argues that it was US foreign policy in the Middle East and elsewhere that brought about these attacks.

The unfortunate result is that academics can no longer do their work honestly. A scholar working on recently discovered Qur’anic manuscripts showed some of his startling conclusions to a distinguished colleague, a world expert on the Qur’an. The latter did not ask, "What is the evidence, what are your arguments, is it true?" The colleague simply warned him that his thesis was unacceptable because it would upset Muslims.

In 2001, Professor Josef van Ess, a scholar whose works are essential to the study of Islamic theology, cut short his research, fearing it would not meet the approval of Sunni Islam. Gunter Luling was hounded out of the profession by German universities because he proposed the radical thesis that at least a third of the Qur’an was originally a pre-Islamic, Christian hymnody, and thus had nothing to do with Mohammed. One German Arabist says academics are now wearing "a turban spiritually in their mind," practicing "Islamic scholarship" rather than scholarship on Islam. Where biblical criticism has made important advances since the 16th century, when Spinoza demonstrated that the Pentateuch could not have been written by Moses, the Qur’an is virtually unknown as a human document susceptible to analysis by the instruments and techniques of biblical criticism.

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mothra
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #541 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:35pm
 
For crying out loud Soren. are you deliberately trying to be as infuriating as you can?

And where sis i say i fully understood Islam? Proof you don't bloody well read what people write to you.

Go back and read it again and pay attention this time.
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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.
 
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Soren
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #542 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:36pm
 
reformation and wilfully ignore books such as Anwar Shaikh’s Islam -- The Arab Imperialism (1998), or my Why I Am Not A Muslim (1995). How do they think reformation will come about if not with criticism? The proposed 2001 legislation by the British Labour government to protect Muslims, while well-intentioned, is woefully misguided. It will mean publishers will be even more reluctant to take on works critical of Islam. If we stifle rational discussion of Islam, what will emerge will be the very thing that political correctness and the Government seek to avoid: virulent, racist populism. If there are further terrorist acts then irrational xenophobia will be the only means of expression available. We also cannot allow Muslims subjectively to decide what constitutes "incitement to religious hatred," since any legitimate criticism of Islam will then be shouted down as religious hatred. Only in a democracy where freedom of inquiry is protected will science progress. Hastily conceived laws risk smothering the golden thread of rationalism running through Western Civilisation.
http://www.liberalinstitute.com/IslamAndIntellectualTerrorism.html
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mothra
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #543 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:37pm
 
"Aldous Huxley once defined an intellectual as someone who had found something in life more important than sex: a witty but inadequate definition, since it would make all impotent men and frigid women intellectuals."


You expect me to take a piece that starts like that seriously?
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Soren
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #544 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:39pm
 
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Soren
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #545 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:41pm
 


Another
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Soren
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #546 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:43pm
 
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:37pm:
"Aldous Huxley once defined an intellectual as someone who had found something in life more important than sex: a witty but inadequate definition, since it would make all impotent men and frigid women intellectuals."


You expect me to take a piece that starts like that seriously?

Yes.

Read the objective, rational criticism of Islam and comment, bint.

Don't look for lane-o excuses for not providing or endorsing examples of acceptable objective criticism of Islam.

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mothra
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #547 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:45pm
 
Soren wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:43pm:
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:37pm:
"Aldous Huxley once defined an intellectual as someone who had found something in life more important than sex: a witty but inadequate definition, since it would make all impotent men and frigid women intellectuals."


You expect me to take a piece that starts like that seriously?

Yes.

Read the objective, rational criticism of Islam and comment, bint.

Don't look for lane-o excuses for not providing or endorsing examples of acceptable objective criticism of Islam.




How about you get back to answering our questions Soren. We've been waiting for days.

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mothra
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #548 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:49pm
 
By the way, you're article is rubbish. You should be ashamed trying to pass that off as intelligent .... or objective.

Pathetic.
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Soren
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #549 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:58pm
 
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:45pm:
Soren wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:43pm:
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:37pm:
"Aldous Huxley once defined an intellectual as someone who had found something in life more important than sex: a witty but inadequate definition, since it would make all impotent men and frigid women intellectuals."


You expect me to take a piece that starts like that seriously?

Yes.

Read the objective, rational criticism of Islam and comment, bint.

Don't look for lane-o excuses for not providing or endorsing examples of acceptable objective criticism of Islam.




How about you get back to answering our questions Soren. We've been waiting for days.




I asked you guys about acceptable, objective criticisms of Islam when you mocked my post from The Spectator saying it is possible to reject Islam for good rational reasons.

Instead of giving me the acceptable ways of criticising Islam, you have given me a series of questions just to get out of answering mine.

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Soren
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #550 - May 8th, 2015 at 5:59pm
 
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:49pm:
By the way, you're article is rubbish. You should be ashamed trying to pass that off as intelligent .... or objective.

Pathetic.

Which part is not objective? Which part is not true?

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mothra
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #551 - May 8th, 2015 at 6:11pm
 
Soren wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:58pm:
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:45pm:
Soren wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:43pm:
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:37pm:
"Aldous Huxley once defined an intellectual as someone who had found something in life more important than sex: a witty but inadequate definition, since it would make all impotent men and frigid women intellectuals."


You expect me to take a piece that starts like that seriously?

Yes.

Read the objective, rational criticism of Islam and comment, bint.

Don't look for lane-o excuses for not providing or endorsing examples of acceptable objective criticism of Islam.




How about you get back to answering our questions Soren. We've been waiting for days.




I asked you guys about acceptable, objective criticisms of Islam when you mocked my post from The Spectator saying it is possible to reject Islam for good rational reasons.

Instead of giving me the acceptable ways of criticising Islam, you have given me a series of questions just to get out of answering mine.




Because one cannot start objective discussion with you ... as you keep proving.

We have been offering you opportunities to join us at a reasoned starting point.

If you actually read any of our posts properly, you would understand that by now. It has been pointed out to you many times in many different ways.

But you just get so darned cross. Probably because you're a Scando.
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mothra
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #552 - May 8th, 2015 at 6:12pm
 
Soren wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:59pm:
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:49pm:
By the way, you're article is rubbish. You should be ashamed trying to pass that off as intelligent .... or objective.

Pathetic.

Which part is not objective? Which part is not true?




Come on Soren. You're not this stupid, are you?
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Soren
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #553 - May 8th, 2015 at 6:53pm
 
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 6:11pm:
Soren wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:58pm:
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:45pm:
Soren wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:43pm:
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:37pm:
"Aldous Huxley once defined an intellectual as someone who had found something in life more important than sex: a witty but inadequate definition, since it would make all impotent men and frigid women intellectuals."


You expect me to take a piece that starts like that seriously?

Yes.

Read the objective, rational criticism of Islam and comment, bint.

Don't look for lane-o excuses for not providing or endorsing examples of acceptable objective criticism of Islam.




How about you get back to answering our questions Soren. We've been waiting for days.




I asked you guys about acceptable, objective criticisms of Islam when you mocked my post from The Spectator saying it is possible to reject Islam for good rational reasons.

Instead of giving me the acceptable ways of criticising Islam, you have given me a series of questions just to get out of answering mine.




Because one cannot start objective discussion with you ... as you keep proving.

We have been offering you opportunities to join us at a reasoned starting point.

If you actually read any of our posts properly, you would understand that by now. It has been pointed out to you many times in many different ways.

But you just get so darned cross. Probably because you're a Scando.

Your opening gambit is always calling any criticism of Islam Islamophobic and always equate criticism of Islam with criticism of every Muslim. This is a knowingly dishonest tactic.

My opening gambit in this round was criticising this very tactic, the conflating of criticism of Islam with criticism and hatred for every single muslim. You, Gandy, Brain et al come up with this tactic every time.

If I say sharia and jihad are at the heart of Islam, the chorus will immediately say that not all Muslims believe in sharia and jihad, as if saying that they are at the heart of Islam meant that every Muslim believes them.

You make this category mistake consistently, every time, and it is not an innocent mistake, not a result of mere intellectual laziness or simple stupidity. You know precisely what you are doing.

And this is why I repeatedly have been asking you to show us what an objective reasonable criticism of Islam looks like if you think it is possible. Leave the Muslims to one side, just show jow an ideology, a religion can be objectively, reasonably criticised without you lot baying Islamophobia within seconds.

I am asking you a very simple thing and you have been doing everything to avoid facing it. And I am convinced that you will all continue to to do everything to avoid it and to carry on with the stupid Islamophobia mongering. 

I do not believe you can imagine an objective, reasonable criticism of Islam and a complete rejection of it on such grounds.







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Karnal
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Re: More Islamophobic attacks?
Reply #554 - May 8th, 2015 at 6:55pm
 
Soren wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 5:29pm:
mothra wrote on May 8th, 2015 at 11:43am:
No-one is ducking and weaving anything except you Soren. Although what you are doing is not quite so graceful as ducking and weaving. We're all waiting for you to get the point.

Do you or do you not concede that the VAST majority of Islam related material that appears on this forum is sensationalism in the extreme? Do you agree that there are certain posters who post outright lies regarding Islam or at least profoundly out of context so as to demonise Islam? Do you concede that there are people on this forum who present as incapable of having a rational conversation about Islam? Do you concede that nobody is hearing objective criticism of Islam because the goal posts have been shifted so far onto the Islamaphobes side that those of us who are not spend our time trying to drag people up to a starting point for reasoned discourse.

If you DO concede these points, congratulations. You have been paying attention.

If you do NOT concede these points then i can only arrive at the conclusion that there is no point trying to get through to you at all and i shall simply mock you hence-forth, like i do with the others.

And as for completely rejecting a religion or an ideology, to do so you need to understand it lest you make yourself a poorly informed, prejudiced liar.

I utterly reject Islamophobia. I understand it fully. I know the points they are trying to make and i have challenged them intellectually and found them wanting. Likewise i reject white supremacy, racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia and assorted other prejudices and ideologies. But i know them. I have objectively assessed them. You have not done so with Islam.

Give me examples of non-Islamophobic rational and objective criticism of Islam.



I want to see what actual criticism of Islam - actual criticism, mind - you accept as good, rational and non-Islamophobic, objective. You say you fully understand Islam - so you must have some criticism of it unless you think it is perfect.


I ask for the sinister and Islamophobic reason that I do not believe for a moment that you accept any actual criticism of Islam as good, reasonable and objective.  If you did you would have given us examples already. Instead you are doing the usual slimy and slithery eye rolling routine (and being knowingly dishonest, for you do know what I am asking you but pretend otherwise).


But, old boy, you continue to deflect the very question of honesty in your own posts. no speaka da English, eh?

We understand. No one has the right to not be offended. Present company excluded, dear boy..
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