Australian Politics Forum - Hockey's debt & deficit

Stratos

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #15 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:00am

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:54am:

Tax paid less additional benefits received = net tax.

Yes, and the data I believe you are referring to adds up the average overall, which includes a per person cost of childcare, healthcare, the old age and disability pension, and unemployment benefits which obviously not everyone is being paid, and only includes income tax and not the plethora of other taxes paid.

Your data is incomplete.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: Hockey's debt & deficit Reply #16 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:09am an article by independentaustralia and therefore utterly worthless. bias, fabrication and bitter anti-liberal hatred all render the site worthless for any balanced information.
Back to top	AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..." IP Logged

Dsmithy70

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #17 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:20am

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

an article by independentaustralia and therefore utterly worthless. bias, fabrication and bitter anti-liberal hatred all render the site worthless for any balanced information.

S.O.P when you can't refute facts.

The article post facts & figures & dates of expenditure, if the Independent Australian or whatever it's called has made these figures up it should take you all of 1 google search & 2 minutes to post the truth.

I await your post proving you're accusation.

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento

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Dnarever

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #18 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:35am

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 8:57am:

So even if people are stupid enough to vote back in a Labor Govt, it won't have a cashed up Treasury in which to pork barrel with for a change. Grin

Never happened before either.

The closest was at the demise of the Awful Howard government where there was a little left but also inherited was a crashing world economy.

The previous change over to Labor was the removal of the Fraser government where Labor had to clean up the dreadful mess left as a result of Howard being the treasurer. In the 80's Labor had turned around a floundering economy stagflation and years of miserable results.

Historically Liberals governments have always left office as the result of economic disaster.

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Dnarever

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #19 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:44am

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:56am:

St George of the Garden wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:40am:

What is more concerning is the recession the shambles are causing, deliberately or by incompetence. that is really going to blow out the deficit.

The Senate has blown out the deficit by blocking the majority of the Budget's savings measures.

Effectively Aust is still running on Labor's overspending.

That's the line Hockey should be spruiking.

The conservatives around here where dancing on their computer desks when the Liberal opposition was blocking Labor saving measures - then it was called holding them to account.

Labor do still have to hold the current incompetents to account - If they produce good policy it will be supported.

Still it wasn't Labor throwing many billions to the RBA and it isn't Labor spending on all sorts of rubbish and removing policy that was producing government income ?

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Dnarever

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #20 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:46am

John S wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:31am:

The worst treasurer in Australia history = Liberal (Hockey)

The best treasurer in Australia history = Labor (Keating)

I think Hockey has a way to go to catch up with Howard as worst treasurer.

On the other side I agree with Keating being the best but Costello was pretty close almost a bracket selection in my view.

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Bam

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #21 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 2:56pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

an article by independentaustralia and therefore utterly worthless. bias, fabrication and bitter anti-liberal hatred all render the site worthless for any balanced information.

Your logical fallacy is genetic

Quote:

You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came.

This fallacy avoids the argument by shifting focus onto something's or someone's origins. It's similar to an ad hominem fallacy in that it leverages existing negative perceptions to make someone's argument look bad, without actually presenting a case for why the argument itself lacks merit.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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Bam

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #22 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:04pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:54am:

Stratos wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:47am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:43am:

It's pretty difficult for anyone to totally avoid paying tax which is why I specifically refer to 'net' tax. Roughly 80% of people pay zero or negative 'net' tax.

Correct Swaggy, assuming the 80% do not pay rates, GST or any other form of tax other than income tax, have multiple children that they get government support for, recieve the old age pension, the disability pension AND unemployment benefits.

Tax paid less additional benefits received = net tax.

Is it collated as a Stat. No. That would upset the ochlocrats.

No, it would simply refute your argument.

You never discuss the fact that the top quintile own about 60% of the wealth in Australia and this proportion is increasing. These hogs grow fatter on the wealth of the nation.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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longweekend58

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #23 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:27pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:20am:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

an article by independentaustralia and therefore utterly worthless. bias, fabrication and bitter anti-liberal hatred all render the site worthless for any balanced information.

S.O.P when you can't refute facts.

The article post facts & figures & dates of expenditure, if the Independent Australian or whatever it's called has made these figures up it should take you all of 1 google search & 2 minutes to post the truth.

I await your post proving you're accusation.

I ignore ANYTHING from that travesty of a site. They lie, make stuff up and engage in 'analysis and opinion' that would make even most of the crazies on here blush. I reject ANYTHING they say. If anyone cares to find a balanced article with facts then go for it. But not this trash.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #24 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:30pm

Bam wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 2:56pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

an article by independentaustralia and therefore utterly worthless. bias, fabrication and bitter anti-liberal hatred all render the site worthless for any balanced information.

Your logical fallacy is genetic

Quote:

You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came.

This fallacy avoids the argument by shifting focus onto something's or someone's origins. It's similar to an ad hominem fallacy in that it leverages existing negative perceptions to make someone's argument look bad, without actually presenting a case for why the argument itself lacks merit.

its not a fallacy at all. IA has such an appalling record of lying and one-side reporting along with blatant fabrication that it deserves not even the faintest credibility. And if you think that is a fallacy then how about I quote from the Liberal marketing team or Heartland? Compared to IA they are paragons of balance and truthfulness yet you would reject anything they say out of hand.

or here is a thought... why don't we start a thread on this website and look at their articles and I DEFY any of you to post a pro-liberal point of view and get it published. the fact that there are NONE of these should be enough of a hint for you.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #25 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:32pm

Bam wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:04pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:54am:

Stratos wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:47am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:43am:

It's pretty difficult for anyone to totally avoid paying tax which is why I specifically refer to 'net' tax. Roughly 80% of people pay zero or negative 'net' tax.

Correct Swaggy, assuming the 80% do not pay rates, GST or any other form of tax other than income tax, have multiple children that they get government support for, recieve the old age pension, the disability pension AND unemployment benefits.

Tax paid less additional benefits received = net tax.

Is it collated as a Stat. No. That would upset the ochlocrats.

No, it would simply refute your argument.

You never discuss the fact that the top quintile own about 60% of the wealth in Australia and this proportion is increasing. These hogs grow fatter on the wealth of the nation.

please support this with reputable facts.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #26 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:42pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:27pm:

I ignore ANYTHING from that travesty of a site. They lie, make stuff up and engage in 'analysis and opinion' that would make even most of the crazies on here blush. I reject ANYTHING they say. If anyone cares to find a balanced article with facts then go for it. But not this trash.

Your opinion of something does not change facts, are the number quoted wrong or skewed?

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:30pm:

its not a fallacy at all. IA has such an appalling record of lying and one-side reporting along with blatant fabrication that it deserves not even the faintest credibility. And if you think that is a fallacy then how about I quote from the Liberal marketing team or Heartland? Compared to IA they are paragons of balance and truthfulness yet you would reject anything they say out of hand.

I don't know about Bam but if you did, as always I'd look at the context of the article, google a few major points then offer my opinion.
If your Lib website or Heartland could actually produce something truthful, backed by facts & documentation then well you either don't comment or address the facts

As I told you, the fact you don't like the messenger does not nullify any facts in the message.

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento

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Swagman

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #27 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:52pm

Bam wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:04pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:54am:

Stratos wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:47am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:43am:

It's pretty difficult for anyone to totally avoid paying tax which is why I specifically refer to 'net' tax. Roughly 80% of people pay zero or negative 'net' tax.

Correct Swaggy, assuming the 80% do not pay rates, GST or any other form of tax other than income tax, have multiple children that they get government support for, recieve the old age pension, the disability pension AND unemployment benefits.

Tax paid less additional benefits received = net tax.

Is it collated as a Stat. No. That would upset the ochlocrats.

No, it would simply refute your argument.

You never discuss the fact that the top quintile own about 60% of the wealth in Australia and this proportion is increasing. These hogs grow fatter on the wealth of the nation.

Wealth has naught to do with it. They are taxed on income not wealth.

I could win Lotto and be fortunately wealthy for 5 minutes. Doesn't mean that I'll be a high income earner next year but I will still have the wealth (one would hope)

If you have a high income you will naturally accrue wealth. You have already been taxed on that income. If you off load your wealth for a capital gain the good old blood sucking government will be leaching off you yet again for their pound of flesh.

The FACT remains that it is a small percentage of the Collective that pays for everyone else. F A C T

They pay a sheet-load more tax than the vast majority of others. They (most) do it under duress (threat of prosecution).

Being made to hand over close to half your income (valuables) under threat is robbery.

Handing over half your income is effectively working near half your time for nothing. Being made to work for nothing is slavery.

Progressive taxation is therefore slavery. Shocked

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Bam

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #28 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:56pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:30pm:

Bam wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 2:56pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

an article by independentaustralia and therefore utterly worthless. bias, fabrication and bitter anti-liberal hatred all render the site worthless for any balanced information.

Your logical fallacy is genetic

Quote:

You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came.

This fallacy avoids the argument by shifting focus onto something's or someone's origins. It's similar to an ad hominem fallacy in that it leverages existing negative perceptions to make someone's argument look bad, without actually presenting a case for why the argument itself lacks merit.

its not a fallacy at all.

Not true. You're not even bothering to refute the points raised in the article.

"This fallacy avoids the argument by shifting focus onto something's or someone's origins."

You did this. Fallacy proven.

Quote:

IA has such an appalling record of lying and one-side reporting along with blatant fabrication that it deserves not even the faintest credibility. And if you think that is a fallacy then how about I quote from the Liberal marketing team or Heartland? Compared to IA they are paragons of balance and truthfulness yet you would reject anything they say out of hand.

or here is a thought... why don't we start a thread on this website and look at their articles and I DEFY any of you to post a pro-liberal point of view and get it published. the fact that there are NONE of these should be enough of a hint for you.

This is more fallacious nonsense that is irrelevant to the points raised in the article.

Why don't you refute the points made in the article, rather than posting fallacious crap?

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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Bam

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Re: Hockey's debt & deficit
Reply #29 - Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:59pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:52pm:

Bam wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 3:04pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:54am:

Stratos wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:47am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:43am:

It's pretty difficult for anyone to totally avoid paying tax which is why I specifically refer to 'net' tax. Roughly 80% of people pay zero or negative 'net' tax.

Correct Swaggy, assuming the 80% do not pay rates, GST or any other form of tax other than income tax, have multiple children that they get government support for, recieve the old age pension, the disability pension AND unemployment benefits.

Tax paid less additional benefits received = net tax.

Is it collated as a Stat. No. That would upset the ochlocrats.

No, it would simply refute your argument.

You never discuss the fact that the top quintile own about 60% of the wealth in Australia and this proportion is increasing. These hogs grow fatter on the wealth of the nation.

Wealth has naught to do with it. They are taxed on income not wealth.

I could win Lotto and be fortunately wealthy for 5 minutes. Doesn't mean that I'll be a high income earner next year but I will still have the wealth (one would hope)

If you have a high income you will naturally accrue wealth. You have already been taxed on that income. If you off load your wealth for a capital gain the good old blood sucking government will be leaching off you yet again for their pound of flesh.

The FACT remains that it is a small percentage of the Collective that pays for everyone else. F A C T

They pay a sheet-load more tax than the vast majority of others. They (most) do it under duress (threat of prosecution).

Being made to hand over close to half your income (valuables) under threat is robbery.

Handing over half your income is effectively working near half your time for nothing. Being made to work for nothing is slavery.

Progressive taxation is therefore slavery. Shocked

Would you rather the wealth hogs accumulate more and more of the nation's wealth until they have it all? What happens then?

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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