Australian Politics Forum - Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?

NorthOfNorth

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Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 6:55am

Having just ploughed my way through Reza Aslan's "Zealot: The life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth" (well written, if nothing much new for anyone who's read others' investigations into evidence of the historicity of Jesus), I listened to a Q&A with Reza.

One question, asked of Reza, revealed his thoughts regarding the possibility of an Islamic reformation (similar to a Christian reformation) and his answer was worthy of further debate.

He suggests that after 500 years since the birth of Christian reformation (2017 marks the reformation's 500th anniversary), the process of the reformation's progression has been grossly simplified in the modern psyche, boiling down to something like 'Individuals rose up against the excesses of Catholicism and Papal corruption, established Protestantism and the Protestants won".

He reminds us that the Reformation resulted in the deaths of half the population of Germany alone (and never mind all the rest who died in the thirty years war ignited by the Catholic-Protestant schism) ...

So the idea that the Christian Reformation was not a protracted and murderous process is a fantasy.

He then makes the claim that an Islamic reformation is not only possible, it is happening now. The rise of modern Islamism, Reza asserts, is evidence for the process of reformation (as happened very soon after Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of that Church in Wittenberg).

He also claims that when individuals or societies question or discard dogmas of faith, the consequences are not always positive... And the process will certainly include (at least initially) a destructive and even murderous phase.

So, is Islam in the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?

It's very likely.

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Soren

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #1 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:45am

There in no islamic reformation. What you overlook is the complete absence of a reform agenda, an islamic 95 thesis.

There is an ongoung islamic civil war between the shi and the sunni, there has been vacillation between sidelining islam, rather than reforming it - (Ataturk, Arab nationalism) and muslim revival (muslim brotherhood, IS). But there not been any energy directed towards a re-evaluation of islam. Islam has been painted into a dreadful corner by Mohammed by declaring the koran an eternal, immutable book, the very words of god himself. The semi-literates fetish for the book has made Islam unreformable: you can’t say after 1400 years that Mohammed misunderstood what was dictated to him.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #2 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:11am

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:47am:

There in no islamic reformation. What you overlook is the complete absence of a reform agenda, an islamic 95 thesis.

There is an ongoung islamic civil war between the shi and the sunni, there has been vacillation between sidelining islam, rather than reforming it - (Ataturk, Arab nationalism) and muslim revival (muslim brotherhood, IS). But there not been any energy directed towards a re-evaluation of islam. Islam has been painted into a dreadful corner by Mohammed by declaring the koran an eternal, immutable book, the very words of god himself. The semi-literates fetish for the book has made Islam unreformable: you can’t say after 1400 years that Mohammed misunderstood what was dictated to him.

Maybe, as Reza Aslan suggests, the murderous psychopathic overreaction, that characterises modern Islamism, is a symptom of the fact that Islam is being challenged by modern thinking in a way that it has no credible defence against... The beginnings of reformation Islamic style.

The existential threat is perceived as coming from within (no matter how hard Islamists attempt to externalise it)... A schism between the Islam of those Muslims who identify themselves with 21st century values and the Islam of the dark ages.

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Soren

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #3 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34am

IS may be the ecstatic face of islam. But modernity has no impact on how Islam is interpreted in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen or Turkey, Indoneia, Malaysia. There is no new unerstanding of Islam, only sidelining of it to various degrees.
If anything, there is an iincreaing return to basics, to the source. The hijab is spreading, young urban muslim women cover up more than their mothers did.

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« Last Edit: Oct 4^th, 2014 at 11:32am by Soren »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #4 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:41am

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34am:

IS may be the extatic face of islam. But modernity has no impact on how Islam is interpreted in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen or Turkey, Indoneia, Malaysia. There is no new unerstanding of Islam, only sidelining of it to various degrees.

Are you saying that Sunni Islam, Sufi Islam, wahhabi Islam and Shi'a Islam are the same?

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Karnal

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #5 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:48am

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34am:

IS may be the extatic face of islam. But modernity has no impact on how Islam is interpreted in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen or Turkey, Indoneia, Malaysia. There is no new unerstanding of Islam, only sidelining of it to various degrees.
If anything, there is an iincreaing return to basics, to the source. The hijab is spreading, young urban muslim women cover up more than their mothers did.

Pity about that, old boy. The only way ISIL will be defeated and erradicated is with the engagement of the very countries you mention.

Carry on though. It’s fascinating to watch your attempts to build bridges and create universal harmony.

Henry Kissenger would be proud.

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Soren

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #6 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:10pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:41am:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34am:

IS may be the extatic face of islam. But modernity has no impact on how Islam is interpreted in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen or Turkey, Indoneia, Malaysia. There is no new unerstanding of Islam, only sidelining of it to various degrees.

Are you saying that Sunni Islam, Sufi Islam, wahhabi Islam and Shi'a Islam are the same?

Well, sufism is a branch of shia Islam (if not a mysticism that predates Islam but which flourished in Persia, an empire on its own before Arab conquest) as wahhabis and salafis are a branch of sunni Islam. There are sects but none are new and most importantly none are revising the undertanding of the koran and hadiths.
There will not be a reformation of Islam until the sunnis and shiites reconcile. But there is no Islamic ‘third way’ that could compel or even guide them. Being united against the west and israel is not sufficient.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #7 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:17pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 6:55am:

Having just ploughed my way through Reza Aslan's "Zealot: The life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth" (well written, if nothing much new for anyone who's read others' investigations into evidence of the historicity of Jesus), I listened to a Q&A with Reza.

One question, asked of Reza, revealed his thoughts regarding the possibility of an Islamic reformation (similar to a Christian reformation) and his answer was worthy of further debate.

.....
.....

So, is Islam in the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?

It's very likely.

LOL

In your dreams, North.

Reza Aslan is no moderate.

Reza Aslan is simply another moslem dissembler [i.e. a moslem who is intentionally hiding or disguising his true motives].

Quote:

Reza Aslan refuses to speak out for Islamic “moderation,” says bin Laden’s version of Islam is valid
Robert Spencer Oct 31, 2012

In this revealing video clip, interview Cameron Kash presses noted “moderate” Muslim Reza Aslan on why there is no visible and organized movement of moderate Muslims working against the jihadist understanding of Islam. Aslan, arrogant as ever, first trots out the tired line that those who think that peaceful Muslims aren’t speaking out against jihadists and Islamic supremacists just aren’t paying attention, dismissing those who think otherwise as “stupid.” Kash, however, to his credit, won’t be placated by nonsense, and presses him further.

.....
Also, Aslan makes no mention of the fact that jihadists make recruits among peaceful Muslims and justify their actions by reference to Islamic texts and teachings, and consistently portray themselves as the exponents of authentic Islam. It is perfectly reasonable for Cameron Kash to ask Aslan and his fellow “moderates” to fight that claim. Instead, Aslan makes fey gestures, bloviates and obfuscates.

.....
[Reza Aslan] has called on the U.S. Government to negotiate with Ahmadinejad himself, as well as with Hamas — that is, with two of the most barbaric and murderous adherents of Sharia. Aslan has even praised the jihad terror group Hizballah as “the most dynamic political and social organization in Lebanon,” as well as the Jew-hating, women-hating, kuffar-hating Muslim Brotherhood, which is dedicated in its own words
to “eliminating and destroying Western civilization from within.” Aslan
wrote: “The Muslim Brotherhood will have a significant role to play in
post-Mubarak Egypt.

And that is good thing.” We see now just how “good” things are becoming for non-Muslims and women in Egypt under Brotherhood rule.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/10/reza-aslan-bin-ladens-version-of-islam-is-vali...

Google;
"Reza Aslan" dissembler [i.e. liar]

Google;
The Problem With Reza Aslan's Book About Jesus

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #8 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:18pm

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:45am:

There in no islamic reformation. What you overlook is the complete absence of a reform agenda, an islamic 95 thesis.

There is an ongoung islamic civil war between the shi and the sunni, there has been vacillation between sidelining islam, rather than reforming it - (Ataturk, Arab nationalism) and muslim revival (muslim brotherhood, IS). But there not been any energy directed towards a re-evaluation of islam. Islam has been painted into a dreadful corner by Mohammed by declaring the koran an eternal, immutable book, the very words of god himself. The semi-literates fetish for the book has made Islam unreformable: you can’t say after 1400 years that Mohammed misunderstood what was dictated to him.

You are spot on the mark, imo, Soren.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #9 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:30pm

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34am:

modernity has no impact on how Islam is interpreted in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen or Turkey

The Ottoman Empire in the early-mid 19th century introduced a raft of reforms, including a declaration of freedom of religion, instituting equal rights for citizens of any religious backgrounds, and introducing a law specifically allowing freedom to apostasise. And these laws were brought in specifically on religious grounds. And by that I mean the caliph employed Islamic scholars to draw up the laws.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #10 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:52pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:30pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34am:

modernity has no impact on how Islam is interpreted in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen or Turkey

The Ottoman Empire in the early-mid 19th century introduced a raft of reforms, including a declaration of freedom of religion, instituting equal rights for citizens of any religious backgrounds, and introducing a law specifically allowing freedom to apostasise. And these laws were brought in specifically on religious grounds. And by that I mean the caliph employed Islamic scholars to draw up the laws.

Yeah.

Moderate Turkey.

Whoop-de-do!!!!!

Google;
turkey, Zirve Publishing House massacre, christians, tortured, murder

National laws that bestow - lawful - rights on infidels don't count for much, if you are a devout moslem.

Or hadn't you noticed, gandalf ?

It is a strange phenomenon, ....the utter disregard for national [secular] laws, among ISLAMISTS.

Google;

uk muslim honour killings

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #11 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 1:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:30pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34am:

modernity has no impact on how Islam is interpreted in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen or Turkey

The Ottoman Empire in the early-mid 19th century introduced a raft of reforms, including a declaration of freedom of religion, instituting equal rights for citizens of any religious backgrounds, and introducing a law specifically allowing freedom to apostasise. And these laws were brought in specifically on religious grounds. And by that I mean the caliph employed Islamic scholars to draw up the laws.

So they could climb to the dizzying heights of freedom that dhimmitude confered?

The Edict of 1856 and religious freedom

The Reform Edict of 1856 was intended to carry out the promises of the Tanzimat. The Edict is very specific about the status of non-Muslims, making it possible "to see it as the outcome of a period of religious restlessness that followed the Edict of 1839." Officially, part of the Tanzimat's goal was to make the state intolerant to forced conversion to Islam, also making the execution of apostates from Islam illegal. Despite the official position of the state in the midst of the Tanzimat reforms, this tolerance of non-Muslims seems to have been seriously curtailed, at least until the Reform Edict of 1856. The Ottoman empire had tried many different ways to reach out to non-Muslims. First they tried to reach out to them by giving all non-Muslims an option to apply for Dhimmi status. Having Dhimmi status gave non-Muslims the ability to live in the Ottoman Empire and own property but this ability was not without special taxes (jizya).In fact, there was constant pressure on non-Muslims to convert to Islam, and the danger of execution for apostates remained real. Thus, the Tanzimat, at least at first, failed to actively promote freedom to practice one's religion without harassment. For the "Ottoman ruling elite, 'freedom of religion' meant 'freedom to defend their religion.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #12 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 2:01pm

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:10pm:

But there is no Islamic ‘third way’ that could compel or even guide them. Being united against the west and israel is not sufficient.

It doesn't seem to stop them killing each other. Like Catholics and Orthodox did, like Protestants and Catholics did, then Protestants and Protestants.

I guess Christianity looks monolithic to outsiders as Islam does to non-Muslims.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #13 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 3:16pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:17pm:

Google;
The Problem With Reza Aslan's Book About Jesus

Why would I do that?

There is nothing in Aslan's book which is revelatory on the subject of the historicity of Jesus (or the likely historicity of Jesus). Nor is there anything revelatory about his descriptions of the gross fabrications within the New Testament. There is near universal agreement on the historical facts or the likely historical facts of the foundation of Christianity.

The New Testament was written (significantly) decades after the destruction of the Temple in 70AD and written for a gentile readership, so its lies and fabrication of Jewish life and customs and the times of early first century Palestine were generally unknown to its 2nd century readers.

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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'? Reply #14 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 3:26pm Reformation is not the correct term. Reaffirmation would be a more apt phrase. , Going back to when Mo ruled killing for no real need beheading raping pillaging stealing just like 1400 years ago. The followers are just regurgitating Muhammad's vile deeds.
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