Australian Politics Forum - Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?

Adamant

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #15 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 3:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:30pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34am:

modernity has no impact on how Islam is interpreted in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen or Turkey

The Ottoman Empire in the early-mid 19th century introduced a raft of reforms, including a declaration of freedom of religion, instituting equal rights for citizens of any religious backgrounds, and introducing a law specifically allowing freedom to apostasise. And these laws were brought in specifically on religious grounds. And by that I mean the caliph employed Islamic scholars to draw up the laws.

Greed ruled the Ottoman Empire in those days, Turkey had its best chance at reform under Ataturk but Erdogan is gradually frittering the gains away. The other week he tried to force all school children, regardless of religion, to have Islamic lessons.

People are speculating that he (Turkey) is funding ISIS. Now that would be a surprise!

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Soren

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #16 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 5:53pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:10pm:

But there is no Islamic ‘third way’ that could compel or even guide them. Being united against the west and israel is not sufficient.

It doesn't seem to stop them killing each other. Like Catholics and Orthodox did, like Protestants and Catholics did, then Protestants and Protestants.

I guess Christianity looks monolithic to outsiders as Islam does to non-Muslims.

The sunnis and shia are not fighting over a reform program. There are no improvements or any other reforms proposed for Islam by ether side.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #17 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 6:48pm

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 5:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:10pm:

But there is no Islamic ‘third way’ that could compel or even guide them. Being united against the west and israel is not sufficient.

It doesn't seem to stop them killing each other. Like Catholics and Orthodox did, like Protestants and Catholics did, then Protestants and Protestants.

I guess Christianity looks monolithic to outsiders as Islam does to non-Muslims.

The sunnis and shia are not fighting over a reform program.

Nor were the Lutherans and the Micks.

The Sunnis and Shi’ites are fighting for two things: security for their respective majorities in territories ruled by minority regimes; and a certain commodity that lies underneath all that sand.

It is a jolly world, no?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #18 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:18pm

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 5:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:10pm:

But there is no Islamic ‘third way’ that could compel or even guide them. Being united against the west and israel is not sufficient.

It doesn't seem to stop them killing each other. Like Catholics and Orthodox did, like Protestants and Catholics did, then Protestants and Protestants.

I guess Christianity looks monolithic to outsiders as Islam does to non-Muslims.

The sunnis and shia are not fighting over a reform program. There are no improvements or any other reforms proposed for Islam by ether side.

True. It's about hegemony and power. As it was with the reformation.... A war for the soul of culture... The German princes didn't take on the Vatican for 95 theses.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #19 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:30pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34am:

modernity has no impact on how Islam is interpreted in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen or Turkey

The Ottoman Empire in the early-mid 19th century introduced a raft of reforms, including a declaration of freedom of religion, instituting equal rights for citizens of any religious backgrounds, and introducing a law specifically allowing freedom to apostasise. And these laws were brought in specifically on religious grounds. And by that I mean the caliph employed Islamic scholars to draw up the laws.

The back-sliding return to pre-Ataturk Islamism in Turkey has been underway for some years now. They have been in an aggressive de-reformation mode for quite some time now.

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Adamant

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #20 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:38pm

Karnal wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 6:48pm:

and a certain commodity that lies underneath all that sand.

Getting more and more irrelevant now. Fracking you "don't" know obviously.

Good Old US of A is self sufficient in there oil requirements. They require No foreign oil.

Bring on the Fracking here I say.

Oh bugger they will start to starve then and still blame the west. Catch 22 all over again!

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Karnal

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #21 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:56pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:18pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 5:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:10pm:

But there is no Islamic ‘third way’ that could compel or even guide them. Being united against the west and israel is not sufficient.

It doesn't seem to stop them killing each other. Like Catholics and Orthodox did, like Protestants and Catholics did, then Protestants and Protestants.

I guess Christianity looks monolithic to outsiders as Islam does to non-Muslims.

The sunnis and shia are not fighting over a reform program. There are no improvements or any other reforms proposed for Islam by ether side.

True. It's about hegemony and power. As it was with the reformation.... A war for the soul of culture... The German princes didn't take on the Vatican for 95 theses.

That’s right. According to the old boy, the Holy Roman Empire was holed up, defending its ramparts from the Ottomansfor a thousand years.

University of Balogney, innit.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #22 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 10:04pm

Adamant wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:38pm:

Karnal wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 6:48pm:

and a certain commodity that lies underneath all that sand.

Getting more and more irrelevant now. Fracking you "don't" know obviously.

Good Old US of A is self sufficient in there oil requirements. They require No foreign oil.

Bring on the Fracking here I say.

Oh bugger they will start to starve then and still blame the west. Catch 22 all over again!

Right you are, Caliph. The world has forgotten about the Gulf of Arabia. We’ll leave it in the hands of ISIL and the Somali pirates, no?

We’ll just let BP, Total, Shell and Exxon fend for themselves.

It is a free world, no?

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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'? Reply #23 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 10:12pm Karnal wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 10:04pm: We’ll leave it in the hands of ISIL and the Somali pirates Yes PLEASE!
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freediver

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #24 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 10:23pm

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:45am:

There in no islamic reformation. What you overlook is the complete absence of a reform agenda, an islamic 95 thesis.

There is an ongoung islamic civil war between the shi and the sunni, there has been vacillation between sidelining islam, rather than reforming it - (Ataturk, Arab nationalism) and muslim revival (muslim brotherhood, IS). But there not been any energy directed towards a re-evaluation of islam. Islam has been painted into a dreadful corner by Mohammed by declaring the koran an eternal, immutable book, the very words of god himself. The semi-literates fetish for the book has made Islam unreformable: you can’t say after 1400 years that Mohammed misunderstood what was dictated to him.

Have you read Gandalf's effort at reinterpreting Muhammed's command to kill gay people (both the giver and the receiver)? Inspiring stuff.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #25 - Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 10:41pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 12:30pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34am:

modernity has no impact on how Islam is interpreted in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen or Turkey

The Ottoman Empire in the early-mid 19th century introduced a raft of reforms, including a declaration of freedom of religion, instituting equal rights for citizens of any religious backgrounds, and introducing a law specifically allowing freedom to apostasise. And these laws were brought in specifically on religious grounds. And by that I mean the caliph employed Islamic scholars to draw up the laws.

The back-sliding return to pre-Ataturk Islamism in Turkey has been underway for some years now. They have been in an aggressive de-reformation mode for quite some time now.

A counter-reformation? The Vatican could have provided the handbook.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #26 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 11:18am

freediver wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 10:23pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:45am:

There in no islamic reformation. What you overlook is the complete absence of a reform agenda, an islamic 95 thesis.

There is an ongoung islamic civil war between the shi and the sunni, there has been vacillation between sidelining islam, rather than reforming it - (Ataturk, Arab nationalism) and muslim revival (muslim brotherhood, IS). But there not been any energy directed towards a re-evaluation of islam. Islam has been painted into a dreadful corner by Mohammed by declaring the koran an eternal, immutable book, the very words of god himself. The semi-literates fetish for the book has made Islam unreformable: you can’t say after 1400 years that Mohammed misunderstood what was dictated to him.

Have you read Gandalf's effort at reinterpreting Muhammed's command to kill gay people (both the giver and the receiver)? Inspiring stuff.

You’re addressing the old boy, FD. He agrees with Muhammed.

Receivers often do.

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Soren

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #27 - Oct 7^th, 2014 at 9:04am

World‘s first woman, gay, Christian friendly mosque torched within a month of opening in Saudi Arabia, sorry, South Africa.

"This a deliberate arson attack," the founder, Muslim academic Taj Hargey told AFP. "They used petrol and oil," he said adding close circuit television video footage showed that unidentified people had made several reconnaissance trips to the mosque two hours before the attack.

Andre Traut, police spokesman for the city, said they "are investigating the circumstances surrounding the fire". The mosque, which welcomes gay people, Christians, and treats men and women equally, opened peacefully in Cape Town last month amid opposition and threats of violence.

Just days after it opened, municipal officials said the mosque could be closed down unless it abides by municipal laws. Hargey said Saturday that he has already complied with the requirements and the mosque has been operating.

He blamed his opponents for the attack which occurred on the eve of the celebration of the Muslim feast of Eid al-Adha. "Instead of preparing for the holy day these people were preparing to destroy the house of God ... it's very sad, disrespectful," he said.
But Hargey remains defiant.   "They cannot shut us down, they can try whatever they want," he said. "They have tried verbal intimidation, threats and now arson, this should be the last.""Our opponents should know that they don't have a copyright on Islam."

Hargey has described his mosque as a "religious revolution" following on from the political revolution led by late former president Nelson Mandela when democracy replaced apartheid rule in South Africa in 1994. There are around 737,000 Muslims in South Africa, about 1.5 percent of the population, according to figures from the Pew Research Centre.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/141004/world-africa/article/arson-attack-suspecte...

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'? Reply #28 - Oct 7^th, 2014 at 10:54am Not world's first. There is a mosque in New York thats run by a gay imam and women and men pray side by side, and is frequently led by women.
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Soren

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Re: Islam: In the throes of an Islamic 'Reformation'?
Reply #29 - Oct 7^th, 2014 at 11:27am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 7^th, 2014 at 10:54am:

Not world's first. There is a mosque in New York thats run by a gay imam and women and men pray side by side, and is frequently led by women.

Sorry - second (of two).

The first one is in the second largest jewish town in the world. How many active synagogues in Karachi, the second biggest muslim town? Cairo, the third largest, which had a 100 thouand jews a century ago but now there a fewr than 100, mostly elderly?

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« Last Edit: Oct 7^th, 2014 at 11:43am by Soren »

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