Australian Politics Forum - What is holding the islamic world back?

Brian Ross

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #90 - Oct 14^th, 2014 at 8:30pm

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 7:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 6:25pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

I have asked you many times - which parts of the Koran and hadiths do you reject for a more tolerant and peaceful Islam?

I went to quite a lot of effort to outline my position on the ahadith in a recent dedicated thread. I'm a little insulted it seems to have flown over your head.

As for the Quran, I don't reject any of it. I only reject interpretations that insist we must be murderous raping bastards to be good muslims. I have also been hammering home that point for a long time.

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

What you are campaigning for is that the embarrassing bits be ignored - but without any explanation as to why those bits and on what grounds..

Its comments like this that leads me to believe I am completely wasting my time here.

So how do you interpret the murderous bits of the Koran?

So, how do you turn a blind eye to the murderous bits in The Bible, Soren? Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #91 - Oct 15^th, 2014 at 8:07am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 8:30pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 7:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 6:25pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

I have asked you many times - which parts of the Koran and hadiths do you reject for a more tolerant and peaceful Islam?

I went to quite a lot of effort to outline my position on the ahadith in a recent dedicated thread. I'm a little insulted it seems to have flown over your head.

As for the Quran, I don't reject any of it. I only reject interpretations that insist we must be murderous raping bastards to be good muslims. I have also been hammering home that point for a long time.

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

What you are campaigning for is that the embarrassing bits be ignored - but without any explanation as to why those bits and on what grounds..

Its comments like this that leads me to believe I am completely wasting my time here.

So how do you interpret the murderous bits of the Koran?

So, how do you turn a blind eye to the murderous bits in The Bible, Soren? Roll Eyes

There are no murderous bits in the NT and consequently nobody is beheading, raping, selling into slavery anybody while quoting Jesus or Paul or the rest of them. Have you really not noticed this huge difference between the followers of Jesus and Mohammed?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #92 - Oct 15^th, 2014 at 9:31am

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 7:14pm:

So how do you interpret the murderous bits of the Koran?

Come on Soren, at least make some effort.

We can go through specific passages, as I have done painstakingly many times before, if you like. But please don't insult my intelligence with such absurdly loaded questions.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #93 - Oct 15^th, 2014 at 11:08pm

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2014 at 8:07am:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 8:30pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 7:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 6:25pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

I have asked you many times - which parts of the Koran and hadiths do you reject for a more tolerant and peaceful Islam?

I went to quite a lot of effort to outline my position on the ahadith in a recent dedicated thread. I'm a little insulted it seems to have flown over your head.

As for the Quran, I don't reject any of it. I only reject interpretations that insist we must be murderous raping bastards to be good muslims. I have also been hammering home that point for a long time.

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

What you are campaigning for is that the embarrassing bits be ignored - but without any explanation as to why those bits and on what grounds..

Its comments like this that leads me to believe I am completely wasting my time here.

So how do you interpret the murderous bits of the Koran?

So, how do you turn a blind eye to the murderous bits in The Bible, Soren? Roll Eyes

There are no murderous bits in the NT and consequently nobody is beheading, raping, selling into slavery anybody while quoting Jesus or Paul or the rest of them. Have you really not noticed this huge difference between the followers of Jesus and Mohammed?

I said, Soren, "The Bible". The Bible consists of more than just the New Testament.

Unfortunately for you, you're also wrong about the New Testament. Forgotten?

Romans 1:24-32

Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #94 - Oct 16^th, 2014 at 8:56am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 15^th, 2014 at 11:08pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2014 at 8:07am:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 8:30pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 7:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 6:25pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

I have asked you many times - which parts of the Koran and hadiths do you reject for a more tolerant and peaceful Islam?

I went to quite a lot of effort to outline my position on the ahadith in a recent dedicated thread. I'm a little insulted it seems to have flown over your head.

As for the Quran, I don't reject any of it. I only reject interpretations that insist we must be murderous raping bastards to be good muslims. I have also been hammering home that point for a long time.

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

What you are campaigning for is that the embarrassing bits be ignored - but without any explanation as to why those bits and on what grounds..

Its comments like this that leads me to believe I am completely wasting my time here.

So how do you interpret the murderous bits of the Koran?

So, how do you turn a blind eye to the murderous bits in The Bible, Soren? Roll Eyes

There are no murderous bits in the NT and consequently nobody is beheading, raping, selling into slavery anybody while quoting Jesus or Paul or the rest of them. Have you really not noticed this huge difference between the followers of Jesus and Mohammed?

I said, Soren, "The Bible". The Bible consists of more than just the New Testament.

Unfortunately for you, you're also wrong about the New Testament. Forgotten?

Romans 1:24-32

Roll Eyes

It doesn't say cut their heads of and their hands. It says they deserve death. Deserving death - we all die, Brain.

Is that all you have to balance out all the instructions to kill the Jews and the unbelievers in the Koran? Pathetically dishonest, Brain.

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|dev|null

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #95 - Oct 16^th, 2014 at 10:49am

So, advocating death for non-believers is not a "murderous" passage in the bible? Really? As usual, you've been hoist by your own petard! Your own holy book lets you down Soren. So, how do you turn a blind eye to all the murderous passages in the Bible (in total)? It's YOUR holy book. Why aren't you CARRYING OUT IT'S INSTRUCTIONS? Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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moses

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #96 - Oct 16^th, 2014 at 3:06pm

it's been done to death, but here goes for the lying apologists

Christ overturned the murderous bits of Mosaic law 2014 years ago

Quote:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

As for the tired old apologist carping **but it's still in the bible**

Of course it is how would anybody know what Christ and the early founders were talking about if there is no copy to show what has been annulled or superseded?

However the real issue facing the world today is:

There is no reform coming to islam ever, the simple reason being:

muslims who eat live and breathe the iniquitous literal version of islam, allah, muhammad the qur'an and hadi'th are quiet happy with the terrorism rape torture and mass murder, contained in this aggreation of evil. (they love it, because allah loves them to be a degenerate human being)

Those muslims who would like the atrocities to have no bearing on the cult, lack what it takes to criticize and condemn, as unfit for 21st century civilization, the commands, teachings and verses which unconditionally extol murder malevolence and hatred as the higher path for muslims.

The apologist also utterly rejects any criticism of islamic doctrine.

The situation right now, today 2014 is:

1/. The muslim terrorist torturer rapist and mass murderer, is absolutely correct according to the doctrine of the cult, their pagan god and phophet, their supposedly sacred writings.

2/. The malevolency is fully supported by all muslims who refuse to condemn the doctrine which encourages the hatred and atrocities.

3/. Apologists also confirm the terrorist is absolutely correct, by always trying to downplay the islamic dogma as no worse than any other belief

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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: What is holding the islamic world back? Reply #97 - Oct 16^th, 2014 at 3:15pm The Old Testament is an intrinsic part of the Bible. Keep making excuses Moses. It's not like you follow what is said in the New Testament anyway.
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Soren

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #98 - Oct 16^th, 2014 at 9:56pm

|dev|null wrote on Oct 16^th, 2014 at 10:49am:

So, advocating death for non-believers is not a "murderous" passage in the bible? Really? As usual, you've been hoist by your own petard! Your own holy book lets you down Soren. So, how do you turn a blind eye to all the murderous passages in the Bible (in total)? It's YOUR holy book. Why aren't you CARRYING OUT IT'S INSTRUCTIONS? Grin

There are no instructions for murder in the OT for all future generations. It is much more of a history book than an instruction manual when it comes to the wars between the Jews and their enemies.
Even you, mentally negligible as you are, should realise that much.

Mohammed, being the last of the messengers of Gawd, is instructing all future Muslims on the way to the final solution triumph of Islam.

Get this, Bad Breath - nobody is murdering anyone every day on the basis of what's in the OT.

There is bloody mayhem and murder and degradation of innocents every day on the basis of what's in the Koran.

But Islam has nuffin' to do wiv nuffin', yeah? Bring on the uncomprehending swivel eyes.

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« Last Edit: Oct 16^th, 2014 at 10:09pm by Soren »

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Brian Ross

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #99 - Oct 16^th, 2014 at 11:44pm

Soren wrote on Oct 16^th, 2014 at 9:56pm:

There are no instructions for murder in the OT for all future generations.

Been a long time since you've read The Bible, isn't it, Soren (if at all).

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Father

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Note, none are in the past tense, all are instructions, Soren. Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #100 - Oct 17^th, 2014 at 7:15am

As I said, a history book. The society it speaks of does not exist any more. What is a crucial difference when compared to Islam, that long-vanished society is not going to be revived. There is no Jewish or Christian project for the return to biblical social norms and conduct.
The return to Koranic society is a clear and defining aim of Islam. It is called sharia.

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Yadda

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #101 - Oct 17^th, 2014 at 7:59am

Brian Ross,

Surely you realise that those religious laws [and punishments] in the first books of the OT applied to members of the Hebrew nation, because they were 'in covenant' with their God.

Quote:

Kill Hebrew People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a Hebrew sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Hebrew Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Hebrew Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for a Hebrew Hitting Father

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for a Hebrew Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for a Hebrew committing Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for a Hebrew priests child committing Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Hebrew Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Hebrew covenant breakers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

AS PER....

It was the Hebrew nation which was in covenant with their God.

Those religious laws [and punishments] applied to members of the Hebrew nation, because they were 'in covenant' with their God.

AS PER....

Exodus 19:8

And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.

And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Leviticus 20:22
Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
....
....
26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: What is holding the islamic world back? Reply #102 - Oct 17^th, 2014 at 11:15am Excuses, excuses from our resident Christian apologists. Tsk, tsk, always trying to divert and obscure criticism of their murderous religious instruction manual! They use smoke and mirrors to try and lie their way out of taking responsibility for what their religion says!
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moses

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #103 - Oct 17^th, 2014 at 4:19pm

Here's your big chance HB I challenge you to prove that the N.T. does not annul the ancient 3414 years old Mosaic Law of the Hebrews

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Prove any of the above verses do not replace the law with a new covenant

Or are you simply lying as per the usual fashion of the apologists for islamic terrorism?

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Brian Ross

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #104 - Oct 17^th, 2014 at 6:26pm

Soren wrote on Oct 17^th, 2014 at 7:15am:

As I said, a history book. The society it speaks of does not exist any more. What is a crucial difference when compared to Islam, that long-vanished society is not going to be revived. There is no Jewish or Christian project for the return to biblical social norms and conduct.
The return to Koranic society is a clear and defining aim of Islam. It is called sharia.

Yet we have Christians, one on this very forum, whom are fond of quoting from The Old Testament and for all we know, enjoy following the instructions they find there.

Soren, the reality is that until Christianity jettisons The Old Testament, Christians will continue to find inspiration there. "An eye for an eye," and so on.

You keep denying it, but the rest of the world knows you're just bullshitting. Roll Eyes

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