Australian Politics Forum - What is holding the islamic world back?

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: What is holding the islamic world back? Reply #60 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 10:22am The really stupid thing about Japan's surrender was that the US spilled so much blood insisting on an unconditional surrender, but in the end got a conditional surrender anyway.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #61 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 10:52am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 10:22am:

The really stupid thing about Japan's surrender was that the US spilled so much blood insisting on an unconditional surrender, but in the end got a conditional surrender anyway.

Really ?

I missed that part [in my high school history class], ...where Japan threatened to fight on, unless the USA accepted Japan's terms for surrender.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #62 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 10:56am

They didn't.

The US decided themselves the 'condition' of allowing the Japanese to retain the emperor - a condition they had previously rejected outright. They probably decided to wrap things up as quickly as possible to avoid having the Japanese surrendering to the Soviets, who at the time were sweeping through Japanese territory.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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MumboJumbo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1474 Gender:	Re: What is holding the islamic world back? Reply #63 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:03am So gandalf, let's hear your thoughts on the subject of the thread: what is holding the islamic world back? Freediver says it's islam itself. I say it's the sword-shakers. What do you say it is?
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|dev|null

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #64 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:10am

MumboJumbo wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:03am:

So gandalf, let's hear your thoughts on the subject of the thread: what is holding the islamic world back?

Freediver says it's islam itself. I say it's the sword-shakers. What do you say it is?

I'd say its many things. Islam itself, with it's resistance to modernity, the sword-shakers reinforcing that aspect of the religion, poor education supporting the sword-shakers and also Western interference which sees profit and advantage in making such that compliant political elites are installed and kept in power to allow exploitation of, in particular Middle-Eastern Muslim nations to ensure cheap and accessible oil, which the Western economies are so dependent on. Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #65 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:16am

MumboJumbo wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:03am:

So gandalf, let's hear your thoughts on the subject of the thread: what is holding the islamic world back?

Freediver says it's islam itself. I say it's the sword-shakers. What do you say it is?

What is holding the islamic world back is the knuckleheads on both sides - the muslims who insist islam belongs in the 7th century stone age, and the non-muslims who insist these muslism are right - and do their bit to shut out efforts at reform (such as the example in the OP).

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Animal Mutha

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #66 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:17am

|dev|null wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:10am:

MumboJumbo wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:03am:

So gandalf, let's hear your thoughts on the subject of the thread: what is holding the islamic world back?

Freediver says it's islam itself. I say it's the sword-shakers. What do you say it is?

I'd say its many things. Islam itself, with it's resistance to modernity, the sword-shakers reinforcing that aspect of the religion, poor education supporting the sword-shakers and also Western interference which sees profit and advantage in making such that compliant political elites are installed and kept in power to allow exploitation of, in particular Middle-Eastern Muslim nations to ensure cheap and accessible oil, which the Western economies are so dependent on. Grin

There was no western interference in Syria and it's still a basket case?Same for Somalia, Iran etc etc etc. Maybe Muslims like war?

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|dev|null

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #67 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:24pm

Animal Mutha wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:17am:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:10am:

MumboJumbo wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:03am:

So gandalf, let's hear your thoughts on the subject of the thread: what is holding the islamic world back?

Freediver says it's islam itself. I say it's the sword-shakers. What do you say it is?

I'd say its many things. Islam itself, with it's resistance to modernity, the sword-shakers reinforcing that aspect of the religion, poor education supporting the sword-shakers and also Western interference which sees profit and advantage in making such that compliant political elites are installed and kept in power to allow exploitation of, in particular Middle-Eastern Muslim nations to ensure cheap and accessible oil, which the Western economies are so dependent on. Grin

There was no western interference in Syria and it's still a basket case?Same for Somalia, Iran etc etc etc. Maybe Muslims like war?

There has been Western interference in all three nations you name. Are you really that ignorant of the history of the region?

The Assad regime of Syria has been supported by first the USSR and now Russia for decades. Iran had the Shah forced on it by Western interference when the democratically elected Mossadeq government was overthrown by Western intelligence agencies. Somalia had Western interference in it's civil war and ongoing civil dislocation stretching back decades. Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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Animal Mutha

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #68 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm

|dev|null wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:24pm:

Animal Mutha wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:17am:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:10am:

MumboJumbo wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:03am:

So gandalf, let's hear your thoughts on the subject of the thread: what is holding the islamic world back?

Freediver says it's islam itself. I say it's the sword-shakers. What do you say it is?

I'd say its many things. Islam itself, with it's resistance to modernity, the sword-shakers reinforcing that aspect of the religion, poor education supporting the sword-shakers and also Western interference which sees profit and advantage in making such that compliant political elites are installed and kept in power to allow exploitation of, in particular Middle-Eastern Muslim nations to ensure cheap and accessible oil, which the Western economies are so dependent on. Grin

There was no western interference in Syria and it's still a basket case?Same for Somalia, Iran etc etc etc. Maybe Muslims like war?

There has been Western interference in all three nations you name. Are you really that ignorant of the history of the region?

The Assad regime of Syria has been supported by first the USSR and now Russia for decades. Iran had the Shah forced on it by Western interference when the democratically elected Mossadeq government was overthrown by Western intelligence agencies. Somalia had Western interference in it's civil war and ongoing civil dislocation stretching back decades. Grin

Crap. Don't blame the west for their problems. American has meddled in most of the worlds governments and they aren't chopping off heads. Islam's problems are sectarian, education, poverty, primitive ideologies, lack of scientific advancement, limited female presence in government and society, tribal, liking war, hate, looking at the afterlife instead of this life etc etc etc.

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|dev|null

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #69 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:42pm

Animal Mutha wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:24pm:

Animal Mutha wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:17am:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:10am:

MumboJumbo wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 11:03am:

So gandalf, let's hear your thoughts on the subject of the thread: what is holding the islamic world back?

Freediver says it's islam itself. I say it's the sword-shakers. What do you say it is?

I'd say its many things. Islam itself, with it's resistance to modernity, the sword-shakers reinforcing that aspect of the religion, poor education supporting the sword-shakers and also Western interference which sees profit and advantage in making such that compliant political elites are installed and kept in power to allow exploitation of, in particular Middle-Eastern Muslim nations to ensure cheap and accessible oil, which the Western economies are so dependent on. Grin

There was no western interference in Syria and it's still a basket case?Same for Somalia, Iran etc etc etc. Maybe Muslims like war?

There has been Western interference in all three nations you name. Are you really that ignorant of the history of the region?

The Assad regime of Syria has been supported by first the USSR and now Russia for decades. Iran had the Shah forced on it by Western interference when the democratically elected Mossadeq government was overthrown by Western intelligence agencies. Somalia had Western interference in it's civil war and ongoing civil dislocation stretching back decades. Grin

Crap. Don't blame the west for their problems.

I'm not. I am however pointing out it's a contributing factor which you seem to want to ignore or diminish to nothing. You claimed there was "no interference", I pointed out there has been substantial interference. In Iran, if the West hadn't overthrown a democratically elected government and installed the Shah and maintained his brutal autocratic regime in power, then the Ayatollahs wouldn't have come to power, now would they?

Quote:

American has meddled in most of the worlds governments and they aren't chopping off heads.

No but invariably they end up in bloody revolution overthrowing those US installed dictatorships. All that bloodshed which could have been avoided if the US actually did what it claimed it believed in!

Quote:

Islam's problems are sectarian, education, poverty, primitive ideologies, lack of scientific advancement, limited female presence in government and society, tribal, liking war, hate, looking at the afterlife instead of this life etc etc etc.

All contributing factors without a doubt but you really cannot discard Western interference and shoring up the most oppressive regimes because it makes exploitation of their natural resources easier. Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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Karnal

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #70 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 5:08pm

We can blam the West for a good percentage of these problems. Your example of Iran is the reason Iran had a revolution and took an isolationist path. Iranians have every reason to blame the West.

Iranians also blame their own government. The protests against Ahmadinijad in Tehran preceeded the Arab Spring. Iran very nearly became a democracy again - as it was before the US backed their coup and installed the Shah.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #71 - Oct 9^th, 2014 at 5:56pm

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Colonisation Changed Everything, Including Sharia

The advent of modern colonisation, starting with the British East India Company (EIC) and the Dutch entering India and Indonesia in the late 16th and 17th Centuries, would eventually lead to some pretty drastic changes in how Sharia was practised and understood. With the arrival of the colonisers in predominantly Islamic communities came the concept of the nation-state — and with it, codifying (translating and writing down) laws. The colonisers viewed Islam as a threat to the system and civilisation they understood, and began thoroughly remodelling Islamic legal systems.

Started by the Governor of Bengal Warren Hastings in the 1770s and followed by the Dutch in the 1880s, western powers began separate projects to translate, write down and convert the Sharia — as they understood it — into written law. In doing so they turned Sharia’s fluidity rigid, and hollowed out the interpretive core that Sharia law depended on. Islamic law became unable to do what it needed to do to function.

What’s more, this process actually wound back progressive aspects of Islamic law to conservative Western standards. Sharia and Islamic law had bestowed women with rights and privileges that were advanced and equalising; when the laws were translated into colonising languages, those nuances were removed and the patriarchal colonising culture prevailed, writing the rights women had enjoyed under Sharia out of the system entirely. The “Sharia” notion that a man is the head of the family to be obeyed without question was a post-colonial inclusion that completely changed the original intention of the Islamic ruling, and Governor Hastings, along with his counterpart Governor-General of India Charles Cornwallis, felt like Islamic law allowed criminals to escape punishment too easily, complaining that Sharia was “founded on the most lenient principles and on an abhorrence of bloodshed”.

Given Islamic law’s current reputation, this is kind of ironic.

Read more at http://junkee.com/junk-explained-heres-everything-jacqui-lambie-doesnt-know-about-sharia-law/42598#gxiVhjvtzgM39o7s.99

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I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway.

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Karnal

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #72 - Oct 10^th, 2014 at 12:15am

The British also influenced the caste system in India. Under the British, hundreds of castes, kinship groups and family trades became remodelled into the new system of four castes, from.Brahmins to Shudras (and a fifth, the untouchables).

While this model predated the British in India, it was all the British could understand. They only gave administrative jobs and military posts to the upper castes. The British understood the caste system and used it to their advantage.

If it was up to the Freeeedom.advocates here, we’d have a similar model in Australia.

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Brian Ross

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #73 - Oct 10^th, 2014 at 1:20am

Yadda wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 10:52am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 10:22am:

The really stupid thing about Japan's surrender was that the US spilled so much blood insisting on an unconditional surrender, but in the end got a conditional surrender anyway.

Really ?

I missed that part [in my high school history class], ...where Japan threatened to fight on, unless the USA accepted Japan's terms for surrender.

Then your high school history teacher was remiss or you were inattentive, Y.

The Japanese did unconditionally surrender in the end but before doing so, requested clarification from the US as to the meaning of "unconditional surrender" and if they could retain the Emperor as HoS. The US ignored their request on both counts. It prolonged the war by several months which enabled the US to use the atomic bombs to destroy Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The Japanese militarists even then did not want to surrender and a coup was attempted, which failed (thankfully) to prevent the Emporer's message being transmitted.

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #74 - Oct 10^th, 2014 at 8:59am

Karnal wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 12:15am:

The British also influenced the caste system in India. Under the British, hundreds of castes, kinship groups and family trades became remodelled into the new system of four castes, from.Brahmins to Shudras (and a fifth, the untouchables).

While this model predated the British in India, it was all the British could understand. They only gave administrative jobs and military posts to the upper castes. The British understood the caste system and used it to their advantage.

Just same old story with European colonies. We should never forget the Belgians propping up the hutti-tutsi divide in Rwanda, and we all know where that led to in 1994.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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