Australian Politics Forum - What is holding the islamic world back?

Soren

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #75 - Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:19am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 5:56pm:

Quote:

Colonisation Changed Everything, Including Sharia

The advent of modern colonisation, starting with the British East India Company (EIC) and the Dutch entering India and Indonesia in the late 16th and 17th Centuries, would eventually lead to some pretty drastic changes in how Sharia was practised and understood. With the arrival of the colonisers in predominantly Islamic communities came the concept of the nation-state — and with it, codifying (translating and writing down) laws. The colonisers viewed Islam as a threat to the system and civilisation they understood, and began thoroughly remodelling Islamic legal systems.

Started by the Governor of Bengal Warren Hastings in the 1770s and followed by the Dutch in the 1880s, western powers began separate projects to translate, write down and convert the Sharia — as they understood it — into written law. In doing so they turned Sharia’s fluidity rigid, and hollowed out the interpretive core that Sharia law depended on. Islamic law became unable to do what it needed to do to function.

What’s more, this process actually wound back progressive aspects of Islamic law to conservative Western standards. Sharia and Islamic law had bestowed women with rights and privileges that were advanced and equalising; when the laws were translated into colonising languages, those nuances were removed and the patriarchal colonising culture prevailed, writing the rights women had enjoyed under Sharia out of the system entirely. The “Sharia” notion that a man is the head of the family to be obeyed without question was a post-colonial inclusion that completely changed the original intention of the Islamic ruling, and Governor Hastings, along with his counterpart Governor-General of India Charles Cornwallis, felt like Islamic law allowed criminals to escape punishment too easily, complaining that Sharia was “founded on the most lenient principles and on an abhorrence of bloodshed”.

Given Islamic law’s current reputation, this is kind of ironic.

Read more at http://junkee.com/junk-explained-heres-everything-jacqui-lambie-doesnt-know-about-sharia-law/42598#gxiVhjvtzgM39o7s.99

SO what happened in one part of India 250 years ago has so influenced Middle Eastern Arab Islam that they have not been able to overcome it.

But wait! Didn't they come up with salafisms? Wahabism? Muslim Brotherhood? All completely untainted by any Western influence.

It is really tiresome when people come up with the victim narrative on the basis of colonialism (what have the Romans ever done for us, eh?) but ignore completely all the stuff that Islam is doing now and has been doing since independence, deliberately and consciously against Western secular influences.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #76 - Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:39am

Soren wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

But wait! Didn't they come up with salafisms? Wahabism? Muslim Brotherhood? All completely untainted by any Western influence.

Well if you really want to go down that path, you could say that the wahabists in Saudi Arabia were empowered by the western colonialists in order to overthrow the Ottomans and gain access to Arabia's oil. Without western sponsorship, the wahabists would probably have remained the irrelevance they were before.

Soren wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

It is really tiresome when people come up with the victim narrative on the basis of colonialism

Yes it is, but equally tiresom is to completely dismiss the role it did play in the current mess.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #77 - Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:51am

Soren wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 5:56pm:

Quote:

Colonisation Changed Everything, Including Sharia

The advent of modern colonisation, starting with the British East India Company (EIC) and the Dutch entering India and Indonesia in the late 16th and 17th Centuries, would eventually lead to some pretty drastic changes in how Sharia was practised and understood. With the arrival of the colonisers in predominantly Islamic communities came the concept of the nation-state — and with it, codifying (translating and writing down) laws. The colonisers viewed Islam as a threat to the system and civilisation they understood, and began thoroughly remodelling Islamic legal systems.

Started by the Governor of Bengal Warren Hastings in the 1770s and followed by the Dutch in the 1880s, western powers began separate projects to translate, write down and convert the Sharia — as they understood it — into written law. In doing so they turned Sharia’s fluidity rigid, and hollowed out the interpretive core that Sharia law depended on. Islamic law became unable to do what it needed to do to function.

What’s more, this process actually wound back progressive aspects of Islamic law to conservative Western standards. Sharia and Islamic law had bestowed women with rights and privileges that were advanced and equalising; when the laws were translated into colonising languages, those nuances were removed and the patriarchal colonising culture prevailed, writing the rights women had enjoyed under Sharia out of the system entirely. The “Sharia” notion that a man is the head of the family to be obeyed without question was a post-colonial inclusion that completely changed the original intention of the Islamic ruling, and Governor Hastings, along with his counterpart Governor-General of India Charles Cornwallis, felt like Islamic law allowed criminals to escape punishment too easily, complaining that Sharia was “founded on the most lenient principles and on an abhorrence of bloodshed”.

Given Islamic law’s current reputation, this is kind of ironic.

Read more at http://junkee.com/junk-explained-heres-everything-jacqui-lambie-doesnt-know-about-sharia-law/42598#gxiVhjvtzgM39o7s.99

SO what happened in one part of India 250 years ago has so influenced Middle Eastern Arab Islam that they have not been able to overcome it.

But wait! Didn't they come up with salafisms? Wahabism? Muslim Brotherhood? All completely untainted by any Western influence.

It is really tiresome when people come up with the victim narrative on the basis of colonialism (what have the Romans ever done for us, eh?)

but ignore completely all the stuff that Islam is doing now

and has been doing since independence, deliberately and consciously against Western secular influences.

Its coz Annie is a man, but clearly, she he hasn't come out of the closet yet. Wink

And she he has all of that info [all the stuff that Islam is doing now] in another 'box', so that info is unconnected and irrelevant.... Wink

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Soren

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #78 - Oct 12^th, 2014 at 9:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:39am:

Soren wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

But wait! Didn't they come up with salafisms? Wahabism? Muslim Brotherhood? All completely untainted by any Western influence.

Well if you really want to go down that path, you could say that the wahabists in Saudi Arabia were empowered by the western colonialists in order to overthrow the Ottomans and gain access to Arabia's oil. Without western sponsorship, the wahabists would probably have remained the irrelevance they were before.

Soren wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

It is really tiresome when people come up with the victim narrative on the basis of colonialism

Yes it is, but equally tiresome is to completely dismiss the role it did play in the current mess.

Have the Muslims ever come up with anything on their own? Are Muslims fully responsible for anything? Other than Hizballah, Hamas, the Islamic State, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Al Jazeera, Quatar, Turkey, Labia, Egypt, Pakistan?

Gandy, ENOUGH of all your 'it's nuffin' to do with Islam' bollocks. There is over a BILLION of you. You cant's hide behind 10 million Joos and 300 million Americans for ever. You are responsible for Islam.
Gandy, read it slowly, sounding out each letter. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ISLAM. MUSLIM like you foocked it up, YOU fix it.

I am not responsible for Islam's bad reputations. YOU are.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96389	Re: What is holding the islamic world back? Reply #79 - Oct 12^th, 2014 at 9:26pm Exsctly. And the old boy is responsible for Danish. Miam miam, eh? Marvellous stuff.
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Soren

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #80 - Oct 13^th, 2014 at 8:36pm

Soren wrote on Oct 12^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:39am:

[quote author=soren2 link=1412435705/75#75 date=1412903974]But wait! Didn't they come up with salafisms? Wahabism? Muslim Brotherhood? All completely untainted by any Western influence.

Well if you really want to go down that path, you could say that the wahabists in Saudi Arabia were empowered by the western colonialists in order to overthrow the Ottomans and gain access to Arabia's oil. Without western sponsorship, the wahabists would probably have remained the irrelevance they were before.

Soren wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

It is really tiresome when people come up with the victim narrative on the basis of colonialism

Yes it is, but equally tiresome is to completely dismiss the role it did play in the current mess.

Have the Muslims ever come up with anything on their own? Are Muslims fully responsible for anything? Other than Hizballah, Hamas, the Islamic State, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Al Jazeera, Quatar, Turkey, Labia, Egypt, Pakistan?

Gandy, ENOUGH of all your 'it's nuffin' to do with Islam' bollocks. There is over a BILLION of you. You cant's hide behind 10 million Joos and 300 million Americans for ever. You are responsible for Islam.
Gandy, read it slowly, sounding out each letter. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ISLAM. MUSLIM like you foocked it up, YOU fix it.

I am not responsible for Islam's bad reputations. YOU are.

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Brian Ross

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #81 - Oct 13^th, 2014 at 11:58pm

I somehow doubt Gandalf is any more responsible for the entirety of the Muslim world and what every Muslim says/does/thinks, Soren.

So, you're a Christian, are you responsible for all the kiddie-fiddling that goes on within Christian organisations, secular and religious? When are you going to do something personally about it, Soren?

Its that level of thinking. Gandalf is only responsible for his own beliefs, his own views - exactly as you are for yours. He seems quite willing to take responsibility for his are you for yours? Appears not, you duck and weave and attempt to evade anything that smacks of responsibility for your bigotry and religious persecution of Muslims. You're a grade A hypocrite. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #82 - Oct 14^th, 2014 at 8:54am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 13^th, 2014 at 11:58pm:

I somehow doubt Gandalf is any more responsible for the entirety of the Muslim world and what every Muslim says/does/thinks, Soren.

So, you're a Christian, are you responsible for all the kiddie-fiddling that goes on within Christian organisations, secular and religious? When are you going to do something personally about it, Soren?

Its that level of thinking. Gandalf is only responsible for his own beliefs, his own views - exactly as you are for yours. He seems quite willing to take responsibility for his are you for yours? Appears not, you duck and weave and attempt to evade anything that smacks of responsibility for your bigotry and religious persecution of Muslims. You're a grade A hypocrite. Roll Eyes

Islam is not a private language where everyone has his own meaning for every word. Islam is made up of Muslims. That's what religion is - people bound together by common beliefs. Islam does have a massive influence on how Muslims behave. To pretend otherwise is dishonest - that's why you re instantly onto that particular bandwagon, Brain.

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #83 - Oct 14^th, 2014 at 12:35pm

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 8:54am:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 13^th, 2014 at 11:58pm:

I somehow doubt Gandalf is any more responsible for the entirety of the Muslim world and what every Muslim says/does/thinks, Soren.

So, you're a Christian, are you responsible for all the kiddie-fiddling that goes on within Christian organisations, secular and religious? When are you going to do something personally about it, Soren?

Its that level of thinking. Gandalf is only responsible for his own beliefs, his own views - exactly as you are for yours. He seems quite willing to take responsibility for his are you for yours? Appears not, you duck and weave and attempt to evade anything that smacks of responsibility for your bigotry and religious persecution of Muslims. You're a grade A hypocrite. Roll Eyes

Islam is not a private language where everyone has his own meaning for every word. Islam is made up of Muslims. That's what religion is - people bound together by common beliefs. Islam does have a massive influence on how Muslims behave. To pretend otherwise is dishonest - that's why you re instantly onto that particular bandwagon, Brain.

So you DO approve of Paedophilia? Grin

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Bubba Zanetti Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 508 Gender:	Re: What is holding the islamic world back? Reply #84 - Oct 14^th, 2014 at 12:37pm What's holding the Islamic world back is that too many of them have silly polluted minds.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #85 - Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:12pm

Soren wrote on Oct 13^th, 2014 at 8:36pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 12^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:39am:

[quote author=soren2 link=1412435705/75#75 date=1412903974]But wait! Didn't they come up with salafisms? Wahabism? Muslim Brotherhood? All completely untainted by any Western influence.

Well if you really want to go down that path, you could say that the wahabists in Saudi Arabia were empowered by the western colonialists in order to overthrow the Ottomans and gain access to Arabia's oil. Without western sponsorship, the wahabists would probably have remained the irrelevance they were before.

Soren wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

It is really tiresome when people come up with the victim narrative on the basis of colonialism

Yes it is, but equally tiresome is to completely dismiss the role it did play in the current mess.

Have the Muslims ever come up with anything on their own? Are Muslims fully responsible for anything? Other than Hizballah, Hamas, the Islamic State, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Al Jazeera, Quatar, Turkey, Labia, Egypt, Pakistan?

Gandy, ENOUGH of all your 'it's nuffin' to do with Islam' bollocks. There is over a BILLION of you. You cant's hide behind 10 million Joos and 300 million Americans for ever. You are responsible for Islam.
Gandy, read it slowly, sounding out each letter. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ISLAM. MUSLIM like you foocked it up, YOU fix it.

I am not responsible for Islam's bad reputations. YOU are.

Stirring words S... at least they would be if they weren't so hypocritical.

You tell me here to fix it, yet whenever I campaign for a more tolerant and peaceful islam I get mocked and ridiculed - by you especially.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #86 - Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:12pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 13^th, 2014 at 8:36pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 12^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:39am:

[quote author=soren2 link=1412435705/75#75 date=1412903974]But wait! Didn't they come up with salafisms? Wahabism? Muslim Brotherhood? All completely untainted by any Western influence.

Well if you really want to go down that path, you could say that the wahabists in Saudi Arabia were empowered by the western colonialists in order to overthrow the Ottomans and gain access to Arabia's oil. Without western sponsorship, the wahabists would probably have remained the irrelevance they were before.

Soren wrote on Oct 10^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

It is really tiresome when people come up with the victim narrative on the basis of colonialism

Yes it is, but equally tiresome is to completely dismiss the role it did play in the current mess.

Have the Muslims ever come up with anything on their own? Are Muslims fully responsible for anything? Other than Hizballah, Hamas, the Islamic State, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Al Jazeera, Quatar, Turkey, Labia, Egypt, Pakistan?

Gandy, ENOUGH of all your 'it's nuffin' to do with Islam' bollocks. There is over a BILLION of you. You cant's hide behind 10 million Joos and 300 million Americans for ever. You are responsible for Islam.
Gandy, read it slowly, sounding out each letter. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ISLAM. MUSLIM like you foocked it up, YOU fix it.

I am not responsible for Islam's bad reputations. YOU are.

Stirring words S... at least they would be if they weren't so hypocritical.

You tell me here to fix it, yet whenever I campaign for a more tolerant and peaceful islam I get mocked and ridiculed - by you especially.

I have asked you many times - which parts of the Koran and hadiths do you reject for a more tolerant and peaceful Islam?
I don't mock you, Gandy, I just do not believe that you reject any part of the Koran or Mohammed's example. What you are campaigning for is that the embarrassing bits be ignored - but without any explanation as to why those bits and on what grounds..
That is not a reform.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #87 - Oct 14^th, 2014 at 6:25pm

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

I have asked you many times - which parts of the Koran and hadiths do you reject for a more tolerant and peaceful Islam?

I went to quite a lot of effort to outline my position on the ahadith in a recent dedicated thread. I'm a little insulted it seems to have flown over your head.

As for the Quran, I don't reject any of it. I only reject interpretations that insist we must be murderous raping bastards to be good muslims. I have also been hammering home that point for a long time.

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

What you are campaigning for is that the embarrassing bits be ignored - but without any explanation as to why those bits and on what grounds..

Its comments like this that leads me to believe I am completely wasting my time here.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #88 - Oct 14^th, 2014 at 7:14pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 6:25pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

I have asked you many times - which parts of the Koran and hadiths do you reject for a more tolerant and peaceful Islam?

I went to quite a lot of effort to outline my position on the ahadith in a recent dedicated thread. I'm a little insulted it seems to have flown over your head.

As for the Quran, I don't reject any of it. I only reject interpretations that insist we must be murderous raping bastards to be good muslims. I have also been hammering home that point for a long time.

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 2:37pm:

What you are campaigning for is that the embarrassing bits be ignored - but without any explanation as to why those bits and on what grounds..

Its comments like this that leads me to believe I am completely wasting my time here.

So how do you interpret the murderous bits of the Koran?

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Brian Ross

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Re: What is holding the islamic world back?
Reply #89 - Oct 14^th, 2014 at 8:19pm

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 8:54am:

Islam is not a private language where everyone has his own meaning for every word.

Actually it is. Islam, like all religions really is an intensely private relationship between the believer and their God(s). Indeed, Islam much more than Christianity, without it's panoply of saints, it's churches and their hierarchies and it's holy trinity, obscuring the central figure of God. As a consequence, in their private conversations with God, each believer makes their own interpretation of the things they are told to believe in, Soren.

That you appear unable or unwilling to recognise this merely indicates how much of a bigot you are.

Quote:

Islam is made up of Muslims. That's what religion is - people bound together by common beliefs.

Yes but each believer has their own interpretation. One only has to compare Moses and Yadda's and Sprintcyclist's to see how much individual Christians can differ, Soren, yet according to you, all Muslims think the same, believe exactly the same thing, interpret everything in exactly the same way. What a fool. You're presented with the glory that is God and you stop and say, "Mmm, I wonder what Abdul is experiencing and thinking?" Roll Eyes

Quote:

Islam does have a massive influence on how Muslims behave. To pretend otherwise is dishonest - that's why you re instantly onto that particular bandwagon, Brain.

Of course Islam has a massive influence on how Muslims behave but every Muslim's Islam is different. Remember, there is no one between the believer and Allah, the Prophet merely delivered the message, it is up to each individual Muslim how they interpret, Soren. Influence does not mean control, every Muslim is an individual, naked before the gaze of God, Soren and must account for their actions, just as are Christians, Hindus, etc. Each Muslim hopes they've got it right. Some obviously do, some don't and most just muddle along. You however, have them all under the direct control of Muhammad. Acting as if they are automatons. You erect this strawman, completely failing to understand the nature of religion, of Islam, Soren. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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