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Is Australia Against Free Speech (Read 6463 times)
Brian Ross
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #45 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 8:04pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:54pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:34pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:29pm:
Sure, as I said in part one of this thread, I think the government has no place telling people what version of history is the correct one and which version they are allowed to promote. I can understand people getting particularly wound up over this one, but it is time we grew up. The government can not and should not protect us from ideas.


How about denial of the Stolen Generations, FD?  Government denial of their existence and any need to apologise under Howard versus an apology on the behalf of all Australians under Rudd.   Which was the morally correct path?



There was no Stolen Generation.


All states and territory and the federal government disagree, Soren.  Prominent, reliable historians disagree with you as well.

Looks like you're out there, as per usual, on another limb, all on your lonesome, Soren.   
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Adamant
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #46 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:05pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 8:04pm:
All states and territory and the federal government disagree, Soren.  Prominent, reliable historians disagree with you as well.Looks like you're out there, as per usual, on another limb, all on your lonesome, Soren.   


I have spoken to people that took part in "stealing" (Doctors, Dentists, Nurses) people. They most certainly would not agree with you. An Aboriginal lady whom my wife takes shopping every Thursday would not agree with you.

Best slink off.
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Soren
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #47 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:30pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 8:04pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:54pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:34pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:29pm:
Sure, as I said in part one of this thread, I think the government has no place telling people what version of history is the correct one and which version they are allowed to promote. I can understand people getting particularly wound up over this one, but it is time we grew up. The government can not and should not protect us from ideas.


How about denial of the Stolen Generations, FD?  Government denial of their existence and any need to apologise under Howard versus an apology on the behalf of all Australians under Rudd.   Which was the morally correct path?



There was no Stolen Generation.


All states and territory and the federal government disagree, Soren.  Prominent, reliable historians disagree with you as well.

Looks like you're out there, as per usual, on another limb, all on your lonesome, Soren.   



Bollocks.

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Brian Ross
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #48 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:36pm
 
Adamant wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:05pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 8:04pm:
All states and territory and the federal government disagree, Soren.  Prominent, reliable historians disagree with you as well.Looks like you're out there, as per usual, on another limb, all on your lonesome, Soren.   


I have spoken to people that took part in "stealing" (Doctors, Dentists, Nurses) people. They most certainly would not agree with you. An Aboriginal lady whom my wife takes shopping every Thursday would not agree with you.

Best slink off.


Why would Dentists be stealing Aboriginal children, Adamant?

The reality is that the courts have proven the existence of the Stolen Generations.   Are you suggesting that the courts in South Australia were lying when they awarded damages to Bruce Trevorrow?   Roll Eyes

Quote:
    27 May 1997: Western Australia (Richard Court, Premier; Geoff Gallop, Leader of the Opposition)
    28 May 1997: South Australia (Dean Brown, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs)
    3 June 1997: Queensland (K.R.Lingard, Minister for Families, Youth and Community Care)
    17 June 1997: Australian Capital Territory (Kate Carnell, Chief Minister)
    18 June 1997: New South Wales (Bob Carr, Premier)
    13 August 1997: Tasmania (Tony Rundle, Premier)
    17 September 1997: Victoria (Jeff Kennett, Premier)
    24 October 2001: Northern Territory (Claire Martin, Premier)

[Source]

Were they all lying when they recognised the existence of The Stolen Generations when they apologised to them?

In 1995, the Human Rights Commission handed down it's Report Into the Separation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children from Their Families, more commonly known as the Bringing Them Home Report.

In it, one of it's key findings was,
Quote:
Nationally we can conclude with confidence that between one in three and one in ten Indigenous children were forcibly removed from their families and communities in the period from approximately 1910 until 1970. In certain regions and in certain periods the figure was undoubtedly much greater than one in ten. In that time not one Indigenous family has escaped the effects of forcible removal (confirmed by representatives of the Queensland and WA Governments in evidence to the Inquiry). Most families have been affected, in one or more generations, by the forcible removal of one or more children.

Source]

Note that, "representatives of the Queensland and WA Governments in evidence to the Inquiry", admitted that, "In that time not one Indigenous family has escaped the effects of forcible removal..."

Were the representatives of the Queensland and WA Governments lying, Adamant?  To what end?   Roll Eyes

Denial of The Stolen Generations is as heinous IMO as denial of The Holocaust. 
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Soren
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #49 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:41pm
 
Forcible removal is NOT stolen generation, Brain.

It is NOT, Brain.

There should be more forced removals, not fewer.  The interest of the child come before the interest of the tribe, Brain.


You are a hideous sacrificer of people to PC BS, Brain. A hideous moral bankrupt, that is what you are Brain. A moral paedophile.i
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Brian Ross
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #50 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:51pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:41pm:
Forcible removal is NOT stolen generation, Brain.

It is NOT, Brain.



Forced removal, against the wishes of a child's parents is normally called kidnapping.  When it's undertaken by Governments on the basis of "race"/religion/ethnicity with the  intended purpose to,  "Forcefully transfer children of the group to another group," that is defined as Genocide, according to the Article II of the United Nations  Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Quote:
There should be more forced removals, not fewer.


Interesting to see you advocating Genocide, Soren.   Shocked
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Raven
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #51 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:55pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:54pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:34pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:29pm:
Sure, as I said in part one of this thread, I think the government has no place telling people what version of history is the correct one and which version they are allowed to promote. I can understand people getting particularly wound up over this one, but it is time we grew up. The government can not and should not protect us from ideas.


How about denial of the Stolen Generations, FD?  Government denial of their existence and any need to apologise under Howard versus an apology on the behalf of all Australians under Rudd.   Which was the morally correct path?



There was no Stolen Generation.




Raven is going to have to disagree with you there. When the various governments have a policy of compulsory removal of 'Half-Caste' children it can not be claimed the children were removed for their own good. Aboriginal people were considered a dying race hence the policy of forced assimilation.

Look at the Aborigines Act 1905 (WA) The purpose of the Aborigines Act (continued from the earlier 1886 Act) was the ‘protection, control and segregation of Aboriginal people’. Unlike the earlier legislation, the impact of the 1905 Act was far-reaching, establishing an administrative regime under the control of a Chief Protector that invaded every aspect of Aboriginal life. The Act assumed that Aboriginal people were a ‘dying race’ in its objective of forced assimilation of future generations.

The Chief Protector had wide-reaching power as legal guardian of all Aboriginal children (under 16 years) whom he decided were illegitimate. He could grant or deny permission for Aboriginal women to marry non-Aboriginal men and could manage the property of Aboriginal people without their consent. Freedom of movement was also restricted. In the subsequent 1936 Native Administration Act, which continued the objectives of the 1905 Act, there were severe penalties, including imprisonment for cohabitation between Aboriginals and Europeans. Police had extensive powers of surveillance, which continued for some time.

The segregation reinforced by the Act and the existing attitudes based on race, established an apartheid regime where Aboriginal people in Western Australia were discriminated against in all sorts of ways. Civil rights were denied by the Act. For example Aboriginal people who had lost control of their property under the 1905 Act lost their eligibility to vote at State Elections

The children who were targeted for removal by the authorities of the time, in almost all cases, had one parent that was 'white' and one that was Aboriginal. The objective behind the removal of these children then was often one of racial assimilation,

The Aboriginal Protection Boards at the time believed that by separating these mixed race children from their families, community, land and culture, assimilation into white Australian society would be all the more effective, with the mixed descent Aboriginal population in time merging with the non Indigenous population.

The children removed and then placed in institutions or with new foster families so often received a lower standard of education, and sometimes no education at all, when compared with the standard of education available to white Australian children.

In Western Australia once removed, children were often placed in dormitories, trained as farm labourers and domestic servants, and by the age of 14 were sent out to work.

Many deny the Stolen Generation ever occurred, it's a soothing balm we apply to a wound in our past history. We don't want to believe that our forbearers were capable of such policies.

But it did happen and we as a nation must acknowledge that yes, there were things we did wrong. Things we could have done differently. But simply denying it marks us almost as much as we marked them.
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Soren
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #52 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 12:02am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:51pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:41pm:
Forcible removal is NOT stolen generation, Brain.

It is NOT, Brain.



Forced removal, against the wishes of a child's parents is normally called kidnapping.  When it's undertaken by Governments on the basis of "race"/religion/ethnicity with the  intended purpose to,  "Forcefully transfer children of the group to another group," that is defined as Genocide, according to the Article II of the United Nations  Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Quote:
There should be more forced removals, not fewer.


Interesting to see you advocating Genocide, Soren.   Shocked

None of which happened here.  There was no genocide, there was no stole generation.  There is a lot of loaded language such as yours, but that is no argument, it's just loaded language.


There was no stolen generation.



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Brian Ross
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #53 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 12:05am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 12:02am:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:51pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:41pm:
Forcible removal is NOT stolen generation, Brain.

It is NOT, Brain.



Forced removal, against the wishes of a child's parents is normally called kidnapping.  When it's undertaken by Governments on the basis of "race"/religion/ethnicity with the  intended purpose to,  "Forcefully transfer children of the group to another group," that is defined as Genocide, according to the Article II of the United Nations  Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Quote:
There should be more forced removals, not fewer.


Interesting to see you advocating Genocide, Soren.   Shocked

None of which happened here.  There was no genocide, there was no stole generation.  There is a lot of loaded language such as yours, but that is no argument, it's just loaded language.


There was no stolen generation.


You really do live by that river in Egypt don't you, Soren?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Soren
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #54 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 12:13am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 12:05am:
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 12:02am:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:51pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:41pm:
Forcible removal is NOT stolen generation, Brain.

It is NOT, Brain.



Forced removal, against the wishes of a child's parents is normally called kidnapping.  When it's undertaken by Governments on the basis of "race"/religion/ethnicity with the  intended purpose to,  "Forcefully transfer children of the group to another group," that is defined as Genocide, according to the Article II of the United Nations  Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Quote:
There should be more forced removals, not fewer.


Interesting to see you advocating Genocide, Soren.   Shocked

None of which happened here.  There was no genocide, there was no stole generation.  There is a lot of loaded language such as yours, but that is no argument, it's just loaded language.


There was no stolen generation.


You really do live by that river in Egypt don't you, Soren?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Thank you for being evasive and dishonest, as always, Brain.  What would we do if you suddenly turned honest??



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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #55 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 12:19am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 12:13am:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 12:05am:
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 12:02am:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:51pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:41pm:
Forcible removal is NOT stolen generation, Brain.

It is NOT, Brain.



Forced removal, against the wishes of a child's parents is normally called kidnapping.  When it's undertaken by Governments on the basis of "race"/religion/ethnicity with the  intended purpose to,  "Forcefully transfer children of the group to another group," that is defined as Genocide, according to the Article II of the United Nations  Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Quote:
There should be more forced removals, not fewer.


Interesting to see you advocating Genocide, Soren.   Shocked

None of which happened here.  There was no genocide, there was no stole generation.  There is a lot of loaded language such as yours, but that is no argument, it's just loaded language.


There was no stolen generation.


You really do live by that river in Egypt don't you, Soren?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Thank you for being evasive and dishonest, as always, Brain.  What would we do if you suddenly turned honest??


Evasive?  Dishonest?  How?  I have provided evidence as to the existence of The Stolen Generations, as has Raven.  Yet you claim I'm being dishonest?   Evasive?  How?  By pointing out that you are in complete it seems, denial about the issue?

I still maintain that denial of The Stolen Generations is morally equivalent to Holocaust Denial.

Soren, you just keep digging a deeper hole.  One day you'll work out that it might be time to stop.   Roll Eyes
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #56 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 9:55am
 


The small numbers of Aboriginal child removals in the twentieth century were almost all based on traditional grounds of child welfare. Rather than acting for racist reasons, government officers and religious missionaries wanted to rescue children from welfare camps and shanty settlements riddled with alcoholism, domestic violence and sexual abuse. The evidence shows public ser­vants, doctors, police and missionaries appalled to find Aboriginal girls between five and eight years of age suffering from sexual abuse and venereal disease. They were dismayed to sometimes find girls of nine and ten years old hired out as prostitutes by their own parents. That was why the great majority of children removed by authorities were female.


http://stolengenerations.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&It...
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #57 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:17pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 9:55am:
The small numbers of Aboriginal child removals in the twentieth century were almost all based on traditional grounds of child welfare.


Ah, ha!  So you do admit now that Aboriginal children were removed from their parents by the authorities?  Did those parents give permission?  Were they asked before the children were removed?

Quote:
Rather than acting for racist reasons, government officers and religious missionaries wanted to rescue children from welfare camps and shanty settlements riddled with alcoholism, domestic violence and sexual abuse.


If, as you claim these kidnappings were based on "traditional grounds of child welfare" why were only half-caste children removed?  Full-blood Aboriginal children might be standing beside the half-caste kids, living in exactly the same conditions (indeed, many of the accounts make that clear) and yet they were ignored.   Therefore, the motivation was racial, Soren, as many of the leaders of the day made clear in their correspondence, records and statements.

Quote:
The evidence shows public ser­vants, doctors, police and missionaries appalled to find Aboriginal girls between five and eight years of age suffering from sexual abuse and venereal disease. They were dismayed to sometimes find girls of nine and ten years old hired out as prostitutes by their own parents. That was why the great majority of children removed by authorities were female.


Yet they ignored the plight of those Aboriginal children and instead only took half-caste children, Soren.    Roll Eyes

http://stolengenerations.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&It... [/quote]

Windschuttle?  Talk about a historian who is ideologically driven (or in his case, financially driven)...    Roll Eyes
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Soren
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #58 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 10:29pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 19th, 2014 at 6:17pm:
Windschuttle?  Talk about a historian who is ideologically driven (or in his case, financially driven)...    Roll Eyes

Prove him wrong, bozo, prove him wrong.  You pretend to be an intellectual, here's your opportunity to show your mental prowess.





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Soren
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Re: Is Australia Against Free Speech
Reply #59 - Oct 19th, 2014 at 10:46pm
 
Raven wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:55pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:54pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:34pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 7:29pm:
Sure, as I said in part one of this thread, I think the government has no place telling people what version of history is the correct one and which version they are allowed to promote. I can understand people getting particularly wound up over this one, but it is time we grew up. The government can not and should not protect us from ideas.


How about denial of the Stolen Generations, FD?  Government denial of their existence and any need to apologise under Howard versus an apology on the behalf of all Australians under Rudd.   Which was the morally correct path?



There was no Stolen Generation.




Raven is going to have to disagree with you there.

People talking about themselves in the third person are mentally iffy.

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