Australian Politics Forum - The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws

polite_gandalf

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The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Oct 17^th, 2014 at 8:46am

Quite terrifying really for something so fundamental as our freedoms - but at least they have been exposed. This is both parties I'm talking about - rubber stamping some pretty serious attacks to our freedoms without having a clue what they are.

Quote:

KELLY O'DWYER (responding to comments by Greg Sheridan on the new s35P of the ASIO Act, which makes it an offence to disclose information relating to a special intelligence operation):

It applies to anybody who recklessly or deliberately discloses a special intelligence operation and there are some protections in place, Tony. The protections that are put in place are that we have the same whistleblower provisions that are in existence for intelligence organisations. It is oversighted by the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security.
Untrue. The whistleblower protections have no application here and do not protect a journalist or anyone else who makes a disclosure caught by s35P. Further, the existence of special intelligence operations are required to be reported to the Inspector-General, but he or she has no oversight function in respect of them and no role to play regarding s35P.

Quote:

KATE ELLIS (on s35P):

Because when Greg said this is about preventing a Snowden case and covering up secrets, that's rubbish.
Untrue. Any journalist or anyone else who published information leaked by Snowden, if it related to a special intelligence operation, would almost certainly commit an offence under s35P.

KATE ELLIS (on s35P):

It means that under the laws now you cannot be prosecuted for inadvertently revealing this. You have to actually recognise that there is a real risk and that an ASIO officer's life could be in jeopardy as a result of it and you have to decide to do it anyway.
Untrue. Section 35P says nothing of the sort, there is no requirement that anyone's life is in jeopardy for the offence to be committed. This one is just fiction.

and the real sucker-punch:

Kelly ODwyer trying to explain away the words ""add, copy, delete or alter [data on any computer or device it is monitoring]".

Quote:

KELLY O'DWYER:

Well, we have a difference of opinion but it has been properly oversighted. There has been an inquiry that's actually looked...
TONY JONES:

But you still haven't explained those words?
KELLY O'DWYER:

Yes, well, I...
JULIAN BURNSIDE:

She didn't know they were there and the premise is right.

zing! - Julian Burnside nailed it.

This would be comical if it wasn't so scary.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-16/bradley-national-security-laws-ignorance/5...

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws Reply #1 - Oct 17^th, 2014 at 9:41am Secret intelligence operations should be kept... er.... secret. How very outrageous.
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salad in

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #2 - Oct 17^th, 2014 at 6:29pm

Once again Australians are being punished. Our gov'ts pushed ahead with muslim immigration and this is what we're stuck with. Our parents warned about the stupidity of this 40 years ago but they were ignored. Now because of muslims we're being punished again via the curtailment of certain freedoms. What a phuking mess.

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The ALP, the progressive party, the party of ideas, the workers' friend, is the only Australian political party to roast four young Australians in roof cavities. SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #3 - Oct 17^th, 2014 at 11:45pm

There is nothing ignorant about lawmakers and the legislation they create (read my assertion on the very real differences between legislation, law and Law, and also policy - essentially the only binding one is Law)..

These 'lawmakers' set up these 'laws' for their own benefit or ideological stance, and never consider.. with a lot of justification.. that such 'laws' will ever affect them personally. In effect, they believe that their position places them above law - a proposition clearly supported by the endless parade of wrong-doers through ICAC and the courts, both politicians and other who manage to get their hands on other people's money.

They suffer the delusion that, having Divine Right like some feudal king, they are above such common issues as laws and common decency, and can do what they like with what they want.....

It's a form of mental illness in politicians.....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Brian Ross

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #4 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 1:06am

Soren wrote on Oct 17^th, 2014 at 9:41am:

Secret intelligence operations should be kept... er.... secret. How very outrageous.

To a point. What if those "secret intelligence operations" are breaking the law, Soren? You know, engaging in say, torture? Murder? Defamation? Lying to Parliament? You don't think the ultimate arbiters, the public have a right to know what is supposedly being done in their name?

Do you remember this event, Soren? Were you even aware of it? It happened when ASIO believed it was both above the law and not beholden to the law makers or even the legally elected Government of the day.

ASIO, spying on Australians for 50 years. The chief qualification to be an ASIO officer used to be "ex-British Army, had own push bike." Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Setanta

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #5 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 1:34am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 1:06am:

Soren wrote on Oct 17^th, 2014 at 9:41am:

Secret intelligence operations should be kept... er.... secret. How very outrageous.

To a point. What if those "secret intelligence operations" are breaking the law, Soren? You know, engaging in say, torture? Murder? Defamation? Lying to Parliament? You don't think the ultimate arbiters, the public have a right to know what is supposedly being done in their name?

Do you remember this event, Soren? Were you even aware of it? It happened when ASIO believed it was both above the law and not beholden to the law makers or even the legally elected Government of the day.

ASIO, spying on Australians for 50 years. The chief qualification to be an ASIO officer used to be "ex-British Army, had own push bike." Roll Eyes

Interesting read Brian. I should remember that, but I don't, thanks for the refresher. Do you know of any investigations into the right or fascist groups by ASIO etc? It always seems they are displeased with the people having a voice or voicing concerns on how they operate or what they are doing, be they govt or security services.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #6 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 5:34am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 1:06am:

Soren wrote on Oct 17^th, 2014 at 9:41am:

Secret intelligence operations should be kept... er.... secret. How very outrageous.

To a point. What if those "secret intelligence operations" are breaking the law, Soren? You know, engaging in say, torture? Murder? Defamation? Lying to Parliament? You don't think the ultimate arbiters, the public have a right to know what is supposedly being done in their name?

Do you remember this event, Soren? Were you even aware of it? It happened when ASIO believed it was both above the law and not beholden to the law makers or even the legally elected Government of the day.

ASIO, spying on Australians for 50 years. The chief qualification to be an ASIO officer used to be "ex-British Army, had own push bike." Roll Eyes

ASIOs recently expanded powers were approved in parliament only after adding a clause specifically outlawing torture.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #7 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 5:41am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 1:06am:

Soren wrote on Oct 17^th, 2014 at 9:41am:

Secret intelligence operations should be kept... er.... secret. How very outrageous.

To a point. What if those "secret intelligence operations" are breaking the law, Soren? You know, engaging in say, torture? Murder? Defamation? Lying to Parliament? You don't think the ultimate arbiters, the public have a right to know what is supposedly being done in their name?

Do you remember this event, Soren? Were you even aware of it? It happened when ASIO believed it was both above the law and not beholden to the law makers or even the legally elected Government of the day.

ASIO, spying on Australians for 50 years. The chief qualification to be an ASIO officer used to be "ex-British Army, had own push bike." Roll Eyes

"In one sense the Murphy raid was a failure, as he did not find evidence that ASIO had been hiding information from him."

The raid found ASIOS wasn't hiding anything and there was no threat except in Murphy's imagination.

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #8 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 6:32am

Burnside is right.........if it wasn't so scary it would be hilarious. When the mentally ill are running the asylum......bizarre!!!! BOTR!

And now one from mama England.

Silly people. Why not simply cancel their passports, but that wouldn't do much for the war effort, would it? Those jihadists would meld into the Iraqi population and disappear and we can't have that.

UK confronts terror surge, resurrects medieval treason law to charge Brits

Meanwhile, the UK’s Foreign Secretary said that British jihadis who travel to Iraq or Syria to fight with IS, and pledge their allegiance to the terror group, could be tried for treason.

In order to do this, Britain may resurrect a medieval law dating back to 1351, Hammond said.

Any British citizen who has sworn personal allegiance to the Islamic State could have committed an offence under the Treason Act of 1351, which was passed during the reign of King Edward III, he said.

http://rt.com/uk/196772-extremist-attack-rowley-isis/

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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Bobby.

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #9 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 6:39am

Quote:

Kelly ODwyer trying to explain away the words ""add, copy, delete or alter [data on any computer or device it is monitoring]".

This means that the Govt. could plant false evidence on someone's computer
& then use that to convict them of something they never did.

Surely - this has to be tested in the high court.

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longweekend58

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #10 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 8:54am

Bobby. wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 6:39am:

Quote:

Kelly ODwyer trying to explain away the words ""add, copy, delete or alter [data on any computer or device it is monitoring]".

This means that the Govt. could plant false evidence on someone's computer
& then use that to convict them of something they never did.

Surely - this has to be tested in the high court.

edit

What exactly prevents cops from doing just that right now? planting go false evidence goes on and we all know it. Hopefully not too much. but it is against the law and remains so.

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« Last Edit: Oct 18^th, 2014 at 9:37am by polite_gandalf »

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #11 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 9:59am

Gentlemen - there are NO protections against false planting.

One of the objections I raised to the DNA sampling issue was that, regardless of how many alleged 'hedges' governments put around it, it only required a corrupt officer to plant, say, a used tissue from a suspect's home at a crime scene for 'evidence' to suddenly be created of his/her presence at that scene.

We all know, as well, how such corrupt persons will become close and pally.. bedfellows so to speak .. with any who work on behalf of the crime process. I mean, they're all on the same side, aren't they? So it is not beyond the realm of probability that a person analysing samples could be asked by a 'mate' to test some sample, and that sample substituted...

The whole deal is far too full of holes.

As for lawmakers in general, they lose sight very quickly of the simple fact that they are not entitled (sic) to create 'laws' that themselves do not accord with the rule of law.... something they do all the time on the false assumption that their voting on some abrogation of The Rule of Law somehow makes that abrogation Legal....

A full review of current legislation and the current approach of courts to legislation is mandated at this time to cut out all and any chance of any false conviction or unwarranted conviction on some nonsense 'law'.

More difficult is to get around the Nazi police approach of 'befehlen ist befehlen' as employed in the oath of office of police officers to 'uphold the law as written' - a defence that failed at Nuremburg......

"I was only following orders"......

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Bobby.

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #12 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 10:27am

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 8:54am:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 6:39am:

Quote:

Kelly ODwyer trying to explain away the words ""add, copy, delete or alter [data on any computer or device it is monitoring]".

This means that the Govt. could plant false evidence on someone's computer
& then use that to convict them of something they never did.

Surely - this has to be tested in the high court.

edit

What exactly prevents cops from doing just that right now? planting go false evidence goes on and we all know it. Hopefully not too much. but it is against the law and remains so.

Then - what worries me is that someone who may be a terrorist
could get off legitimate charges by saying the Govt. planted evidence.
The law now allows the Govt. to plant evidence.

This new law has put our national security in jeopardy.

Who was the "genius" who thought that one up?

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longweekend58

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Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws
Reply #13 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 10:29am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 9:59am:

Gentlemen - there are NO protections against false planting.

One of the objections I raised to the DNA sampling issue was that, regardless of how many alleged 'hedges' governments put around it, it only required a corrupt officer to plant, say, a used tissue from a suspect's home at a crime scene for 'evidence' to suddenly be created of his/her presence at that scene.

We all know, as well, how such corrupt persons will become close and pally.. bedfellows so to speak .. with any who work on behalf of the crime process. I mean, they're all on the same side, aren't they? So it is not beyond the realm of probability that a person analysing samples could be asked by a 'mate' to test some sample, and that sample substituted...

The whole deal is far too full of holes.

As for lawmakers in general, they lose sight very quickly of the simple fact that they are not entitled (sic) to create 'laws' that themselves do not accord with the rule of law.... something they do all the time on the false assumption that their voting on some abrogation of The Rule of Law somehow makes that abrogation Legal....

A full review of current legislation and the current approach of courts to legislation is mandated at this time to cut out all and any chance of any false conviction or unwarranted conviction on some nonsense 'law'.

More difficult is to get around the Nazi police approach of 'befehlen ist befehlen' as employed in the oath of office of police officers to 'uphold the law as written' - a defence that failed at Nuremburg......

"I was only following orders"......

there is a higher authority than 'orders' and that is what Nuremberg was about

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85185 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: The ignorance of our lawmakers to their own laws Reply #14 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 11:05am Yes, indeed - we see eye to eye on that.
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged